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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 12-15-2008, 07:03 PM   #211
Charles Whitworth
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

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Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq View Post
For which part of what I stated?
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But what Polliquin is saying is that there are better ways to improve the ablity to maintain moderate to low level power outputs then doing high rep O lifts.
There are a variety of WODs that have already been listed on the front page that offer all ranges of rep schemes in oly's (High, Mid, Low)--there is more than just Metcons and timed events.

Last edited by Charles Whitworth : 12-15-2008 at 07:15 PM.
 
Old 12-15-2008, 10:33 PM   #212
Phillip Garrison
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

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Originally Posted by Charles Whitworth View Post
There are a variety of WODs that have already been listed on the front page that offer all ranges of rep schemes in oly's (High, Mid, Low)--there is more than just Metcons and timed events.
I'm not defending Poliquin, I;m just saying he askes a valid point. Why do high rep Oly lifts, what purpose do they serve besides Metcon? What functional need would there be to do 20 power cleans?
 
Old 12-15-2008, 10:36 PM   #213
Phillip Garrison
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

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Originally Posted by George Noble View Post
I know he does, but the text I emphasised - which I emphasised for a reason and which you appear to have ignored - disagrees (with reasons). Since there's disagreement, maybe you should back up your side with something better than "Poliquin says..." You could even amaze everyone and actually address what Alex wrote.
The text you qouted doesn't disagree it really kinda avoids the question. I'm not supporting Poliquin, nor using the argument "well poliquin says" i'm simply stating he raises a valid question you nor anyone else has really answered. Using the "it's in the wod's, and the wod's work" is a bad argument too.
 
Old 12-15-2008, 10:43 PM   #214
Phillip Garrison
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

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Originally Posted by Barry Cooper View Post
Perhaps I'm missing something, but is there any compelling reason any of us should CARE what Poliquin thinks? It's quite obvious he hasn't done the workouts, and you don't appear to have either. You modify them according to your taste, which means you don't do them as written, and are thus speaking--with respect to your own experience--in the abstract. I am not, nor are most of the people responding. I've done these workouts many times, and love them. They kick my butt, which is the whole point. That's why they made such a compelling end to the CrossFit Games.

Moreover, are you unable to think of athletic events which require explosive movements, over and over? Volleyball? Basketball? Speed skating? Cross Country skiing, skate style?

Your argument rests on two premises: 1) high rep O-lifts offer no unique benefit and increase injury rates; and 2) there are other techniques propounded by the Herr Doktor which DO offer more benefit, at lower rates of injury.

To make your case you need to show high rates of injury. You have not done this, and in my experience the simple fact that people self limit makes our position--that it does NOT increase injury rates--much stronger.

Moreover, there are no movements which duplicate Olympic Lifts. Box jumps don't. Deadlifts don't. Box squats don't. They are a core movement because they are unique. Moreover, CrossFit is itself build around endless permutations of a few basic themes, which includes the use of functional movements. Why would we limit the rep ranges? Dan John has his 100 rep challenge. Why can't we do a mere 30?

You have not shown increases in injuries, and you have not shown that the benefits of these movements can be duplicated in any other way.

If you want to do something else, by all means do so. To paraphrase Yogi Berra, if people don't want to come out to see us, we can't (and don't want to) stop them.

This video here (http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/C...taCJFinals.wmv likely w/fs, unless there's some CrossFit-ish profanity) is, to me, the essence of everything that is beautiful about this discipline and the people in it. If you want nothing to do with it, that's up to you. If you criticize something you dont' understand--and the worst sort of ignorance is believing you know something about which you are in fact fully ignorant--then you simply "opening your mouth and removing all doubt", as the saying goes.
Most sports require a repetitive power component, but there are many ways to achieve it beyond High Rep O Lifts, techniques with better kinesthetics that don't break down rapidly over time. Why do you do O lifts? To maxmimize triple extension and peak power production, or average power production?
You're argument that people self limit has no bearing on the argument. People will use what ever technique they need to to finish the reps, whether or not they are using proper kinetics, and even utlizing the correct motor chain to even do a power clean anymore. The total power output for a marathon is more than for a 400 meter sprint why do we not have people do those?You haven;t shown that high reps don't cause injuries, but I can produce evidence that shows force production drops rapidly after a few reps, and technique evaporates, and improper kinetic chains develop.

I don't like Chuck anymore than you do, and I do the WOD's everyday. Asking valid questions does more to improve cf than blind faith
 
Old 12-15-2008, 11:54 PM   #215
Justin Gross
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

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Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq View Post
I'm not defending Poliquin, I;m just saying he askes a valid point. Why do high rep Oly lifts, what purpose do they serve besides Metcon? What functional need would there be to do 20 power cleans?
Not trying to get tangled up in all this, but one example I could give you would be in my construction job where we will have to move a pile of 90# bags of concrete from here to there. Power Clean it from ground to shoulder.

There are many examples, this just comes off the top of my head.
 
Old 12-16-2008, 12:50 AM   #216
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

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Not trying to get tangled up in all this, but one example I could give you would be in my construction job where we will have to move a pile of 90# bags of concrete from here to there. Power Clean it from ground to shoulder.

There are many examples, this just comes off the top of my head.
It would seem like a power clean, but Charles would argue the kinetics are different. Kettlebell swingsa would do the same thing and not sacrifice pc technique
 
Old 12-16-2008, 01:06 AM   #217
Patrick Janes
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Gross
Not trying to get tangled up in all this, but one example I could give you would be in my construction job where we will have to move a pile of 90# bags of concrete from here to there. Power Clean it from ground to shoulder.
It would seem like a power clean, but Charles would argue the kinetics are different. Kettlebell swingsa would do the same thing and not sacrifice pc technique
while I'd also rather stay right away from these kinds of "discussion", I'd tend to agree, with a slight modification; I'd prescribe something like sandbag cleans; actually... maybe just go read and do everything someone like coach rut ever wrote about sandbags.

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Old 12-16-2008, 01:19 AM   #218
Justin Gross
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

Did you really just say that the movement of power cleaning bags of concrete is more like a kettlebell swing than a power clean?
 
Old 12-16-2008, 01:25 AM   #219
Charles Whitworth
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

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Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq View Post
I'm not defending Poliquin, I;m just saying he askes a valid point. Why do high rep Oly lifts, what purpose do they serve besides Metcon? What functional need would there be to do 20 power cleans?
You answered your own question.
 
Old 12-16-2008, 01:29 AM   #220
Charles Whitworth
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

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Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq View Post
The text you qouted doesn't disagree it really kinda avoids the question. I'm not supporting Poliquin, nor using the argument "well poliquin says" i'm simply stating he raises a valid question you nor anyone else has really answered. Using the "it's in the wod's, and the wod's work" is a bad argument too.
It's not a "bad argument" because you don't understand it. If you can't understand this you shouldn't be debating it. Here it is one more time..... WODs can be range of sets/low, mid, high reps/exercises. It's up to the person. Whatever the case, the WODs on the main board will cover it all over time. Thats why it is called CF.

Last edited by Charles Whitworth : 12-16-2008 at 01:48 AM.
 
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