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Old 08-30-2008, 09:49 PM   #11
Robert Callahan
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Re: Why aren't there more back squats on the main page WOD's?

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Originally Posted by Eric Neri View Post
CrossFit has always emphasized as upright a torso position as possible. This applies to the overhead squat as well.
I have never encountered this emphasis. To say that all squats must be as vertical as possible in order to be "mature" is very odd to me as the back angle is a function of where the weight is most stable and individual limb length. Here is a video of Coach Rippetoe teaching the Overhead squat that I believe was on the main site, so if he is coaching it wrong....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCWLs...eature=related

-Robert
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Old 08-31-2008, 06:19 AM   #12
Eric Neri
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Re: Why aren't there more back squats on the main page WOD's?

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Originally Posted by Robert Callahan View Post
I have never encountered this emphasis. To say that all squats must be as vertical as possible in order to be "mature" is very odd to me as the back angle is a function of where the weight is most stable and individual limb length. Here is a video of Coach Rippetoe teaching the Overhead squat that I believe was on the main site, so if he is coaching it wrong....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCWLs...eature=related

-Robert
To quote coach in the thread I linked to previously:

"The more upright posture indeed creates less moment about the hip and is therefore a stronger position for any given load. (Can you hold more weight on your back standing erect or bent over?)"

You mentioned the it built off the LOW BAR Back Squat. Why a low bar? Less moment about the hip than a high bar one and hence more stable. Well, directly overhead creates no moment about the hip and zero torque on the lower back. This is therefore even more stable than a low bar back squat.

Eric
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Old 08-31-2008, 07:09 AM   #13
Jake Di Vita
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Re: Why aren't there more back squats on the main page WOD's?

The only way the posterior chain is activated during the squat is if your back is not vertical. I believe that the primary reason Rip prescribes low bar squats instead of high bar squats is the hip drive.

The more vertical you are, the more your quads control the movement.
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Old 08-31-2008, 11:13 AM   #14
Joey Powell
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Re: Why aren't there more back squats on the main page WOD's?

Front Squats are a better gateway to overhead squats. Hands down. Everything you need to know about potential issues with the OHS can be identified by watching the Front Squat (accept shoulder instability). And most of all the issues of both can be fixed with a little heel elevation. Then just ween them off of it over time. Hence, why weightlifting shoes were invented.

Zach and I agree again!!! Back squats in Met-Cons work great. Use them with a box for even better effect.
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Old 08-31-2008, 11:28 AM   #15
Robert Callahan
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Re: Why aren't there more back squats on the main page WOD's?

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Originally Posted by Eric Neri View Post
To quote coach in the thread I linked to previously:

"The more upright posture indeed creates less moment about the hip and is therefore a stronger position for any given load. (Can you hold more weight on your back standing erect or bent over?)"

You mentioned the it built off the LOW BAR Back Squat. Why a low bar? Less moment about the hip than a high bar one and hence more stable. Well, directly overhead creates no moment about the hip and zero torque on the lower back. This is therefore even more stable than a low bar back squat.

Eric
What??? What does less "moment" even mean?

Either way to answer the question, which can you hold more weight standing or bend: Which can people squat more? Front or Back Squat, in particular Low Bar back squat? By a long shot low bar back squat even though it forces you to lean over way more than either the other two!! So wouldn't that create more "moment"? whatever that means.

I would also like to point out that in the thread with coaches comment the picture provided as being "ideal" is actually a picture of that lifter about to ditch. He fails the lift because... the weight got to far forward.

Here are some pictures from the New Zealand National Oly championships. They are from when the guy catches his snatch and starts standing up. Look at where the bar is positioned over his head. is it behind his head directly over his scapula? or is it in front directly over where the front squat would be held? And i also included a pic from the clean to show that the hip angle is just as closed in the front squat as the OHS and the back squat so i do not understand how it has "less moment" just because the back is more straight if the hip angle is just as closed. The link to the video I took the pics from is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tcxu7YvCDqs

-Robert
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Old 08-31-2008, 12:35 PM   #16
Joey Powell
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Re: Why aren't there more back squats on the main page WOD's?

any time the the arms are extended with a barbell in the hands, in any fashion, if it is balanced it is over the scapula.

Press
Bench Press
Incline Press
Decline Press
Overhead Squat

Even from the hang the barbell "wants" to be in-line with the scapula if the arms are extended

dead lifts
various types of rows


This is a function of arms extended with weight attached, effected by gravity (either balanced above, or hanging below).

Bench press, Press, dead lift and rows are NOT better potential indicators of OHS ability than the front squat.

In teaching the OH squat, potential leg alignment issues, flexability limitations, and nuero-muscular dis-connects will readily be identified by teaching the front squat. The OHS simply amplifies these issues. The back squat, Particularly the Low-bar version, simply does not do a good job of revealing these issues

The Moment about the hip may in fact be different between the two, but depending on shoulder stabilization / flexability / ROM issues, hip angles related to abduction or adduction, knee alignement with ankles etc.

The problem is that people are only looking at this from the side. Much can be garnered by looking from a more straight on angle of observation.

For instance a person with long femurs compared to torso will undoubtedly have a more pronounced forward lean on ANY type of squat. However, how do you mitigate this for the front squat and the OH squat? Simple. Simply have the squatter turn his legs / feet farther out form say 30 degrees to 45 degrees. From the side this effectively shortens the femurs impact on front to back distance that the back must compensate for by leaning over farther to keep the bar over the mid-foot.

What does this slight change in angle mean for strength? Normally not much, if any in application, once the athlete "burns" it in.
(about 30 seconds for a novice)

If A person is having a hard time not dumping forward with either a front squat or an OH squat, the easy fix is to turn the feet out more, adjust the width of the feet accordingly, and / or raise the heels slightly. This will bring the torso more upright and reduce torque on the lower back.
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Old 08-31-2008, 02:13 PM   #17
Robert Callahan
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Re: Why aren't there more back squats on the main page WOD's?

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Bench press, Press, dead lift and rows are NOT better potential indicators of OHS ability than the front squat.
We are not discussing what is a better indicator of OHS, whatever that means, but rather which exercise adds strength in a fashion that is more easily applicable to the over head Squat. The front squat may be great at displaying problems people have with squats in general, imbalances in quad vs hams and all that good stuff but the strength gained from front squats does not convert to OHS as well as Back Squat because it is a much different move.

I see that the argument is that a more vertical back is more stable, though i do not entirely understand why. And thus in turn in the OHS you do not want to lean over too much, and "mature" OHS have as vertical a back as possible. But even in the case of International Champion Olympic Lifters when they are in the bottom position of their snatch the bar is directly over their scapula slightly behind their head!!! And when they stand up there is a VERY noticeable hip drive. The only other type of squat that utilizes a significant hip drive is the low bar back squat. So why is it that the Front squat strength carries over to OHS more??? Also if you lower the weight directly down at any point, from the bottom catch-position to fully standing upright, in an Olympic Snatch the bar will land just about on the spine of the scapula of the lifter, right where the weight is in a low bar back squat. This means the weight is still being balanced in the same manner as the back squat and thus the motion will be more similar to a back squat.

-Robert
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Last edited by Robert Callahan : 08-31-2008 at 02:16 PM.
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Old 08-31-2008, 03:57 PM   #18
Jim Denofa
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Re: Why aren't there more back squats on the main page WOD's?

I don't understand the direction that this thread has taken. I thought the original question was why are there no back squat met cons on the main site. I have never understood this either. some of my favorite home brewed met cons involve back squats. the potential for injury is no greater in a back squat than any other compound barbell movement.
I think that people are trying to find reasons why coach Glassman has not RX'd more back squat met cons and therefore coming up with issues such as safety, doms, and other reasons. I guarantee that within a few years time there will be a "girls named wod" including back squats and then the excuses will be silenced.

Also, Coach Glassman and Mark Rippetoe come from similar back grounds, but they will vary on the content of their lectures. I guarantee that there are issues and ideas that the two of them disagree on, just like any other two grown men. If Crossfit teaches us anything about fitness, I think that it is to keep seeking the right answers. listen to coach speak, listen to Rip speak, listen to the different trainers at affiliates, gather what makes sense, and use it.
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Old 08-31-2008, 04:08 PM   #19
Joey Powell
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Re: Why aren't there more back squats on the main page WOD's?

This is not an academic exercise.

The point about the scapula is where you are getting stuck. In every lift that the Barbell is balance with extended arms, the barbell is diectly over the scapula.

Hip drive is "significant" in any Squat, actually it defines a Squat, Good morning, or Deadlift. A Front Squat that is Quad dominant, is a flawed front squat. Quads are for knee stabilization in any squat, not prime movers. If this becomes the case, a change in foot/ knee angle or heel height will fix this.

The difference is the effect on Midline stabilization. Just because the weight is over the scapula does not mean it is in advantageous position for the spine. If the shoulders are turned out and back so far, due to a more closed back angle, then the stabilizing of the load is not due to the rigidity of the spine, rather limited to the connective tissue of the shoulder structure in its weakest position. The more up-right the torso, the more the weight transfer proceeds down the spinal column, which also coincides with a stronger position for the shoulder structure. The more the weight transfers down the spinal column, the easier it is for the midline to handle the sheer stress put on it by the increased length of the lever arm, thus allowing a greater transfer of hip drive to take place.

Since hip drive is not the normally the factor of a failed OHS, rather shoulder stability and midline stabilization are, the fact that a "low bar" back squat produces more "Hip Drive" is completely irrelevant. What is relevant is training one's self to put the midline and shoulder structure in an advantageous postition to properly balance the load on the frontal plane over the mid foot.

I have yet to see someone miss a OHS because of weak hip drive. Inability to properly stabilize the midline or properly seat the load on the shoulder structure are always the culprits, long before hip drive would be a factor.
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Old 08-31-2008, 05:21 PM   #20
Robert Callahan
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Re: Why aren't there more back squats on the main page WOD's?

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Originally Posted by Joey Powell View Post
A Front Squat that is Quad dominant, is a flawed front squat.
Interesting, I have been apparently misinformed on this and shall have to do a little research.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey Powell View Post
I have yet to see someone miss a OHS because of weak hip drive. Inability to properly stabilize the midline or properly seat the load on the shoulder structure are always the culprits, long before hip drive would be a factor.
Fair enough, the two main reasons for failure on OHS are 1)"inability to properly stabilize the midline" 2)"or properly seat the load on the shoulder structure"

Reason #2 has nothing to do with squatting, but rather shoulder strength. And I still fail to see how #1 is addressed in front squats more than back squats.

The way I see it the weight from the bar overhead is being transfered down through the arms into the shoulder girdle, and then through the shoulder girdle into the spine and downward to the ground. If you lower the bar down to your shoulders into a BS position you simply truncate that path of weight transfer. Now instead of starting in the hands and working down the arms to the shoulder girdle you simply start at the shoulder girdle where the weight is resting. This would lead me to believe that the midline stabilization required in BS would be more similar to the kind required in OHS than the stabilization required in the FS?

Not trying to be contrary, just looking to gain a deeper understanding of this. Thank you for the dialogue

-Robert
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