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Old 01-31-2008, 12:49 AM   #1
Elliot Fuller
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Fight Science: MMA (National Geographic)

I've never done any MMA or fighting whatsoever, but enjoy watching it. Saw a pretty interesting Fight Science tonight on National Geographic studying the physics behind impact in MMA.

Compared Bas Rutten, Randy Couture and Tito Ortiz in different aspects -- grappling, punching, kicking, etc, and took measurements of the forces involved.

Pretty impressive numbers. Something on the order of 2,000+ pounds of impact per punch during a ground and pound session. Wouldn't wanna be on the bottom.

I'm sure it's elementary to most of the people who actually do it, but I thought it was a cool show.
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Old 02-01-2008, 09:01 AM   #2
Michael A. Krivka
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Re: Fight Science: MMA (National Geographic)

Watched that one as well... in between giving two baths and bedtime stories! Also watched the one on SpecOps - another good watch if you are interested in how the mental aspect of training effects the body.

BTW - have to gripe about the discussion of chokes though! Can't believe the "scientists" bought into the old wives tale of "cutting off the blood flow to the brain" via a choke!?!? you would think they would do a little research prior to making statements like that...
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Old 02-01-2008, 09:17 AM   #3
Brandon Oto
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Re: Fight Science: MMA (National Geographic)

Say more about chokes, Michael.
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Old 02-01-2008, 09:28 AM   #4
Michael A. Krivka
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Re: Fight Science: MMA (National Geographic)

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Originally Posted by Brandon Oto View Post
Say more about chokes, Michael.
Brandon -

The naked choke, in particular, is not a carotid artery choke as it was represented - it's a combination of vascular and lymphatic restriction that causes a marked pressure inbalance in the cranium which causes the subject to pass out. While blood flow is (minimally) restricted to the brain, it is mostly a response to change/buildup of pressure that causes the loss of consciousness. There has been a lot of research done on vascular restraining techniques (by LEO) to justify their use on resisting civilians.

BTW - I can't blame them for parrotting this old myth, but with all the computer power at their disposal you would think they would at least do a little research on the Web!
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Old 02-01-2008, 11:09 AM   #5
Bob Guere
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Re: Fight Science: MMA (National Geographic)

Michael is right on with the rear naked choke.

My first martial arts instructor was an old-school german woman, sweet as can be, but could put a hurting on you. She "demonstrated" the difference between the naked choke and a true carotid choke using forearms, from the front. Much different result and feel (on the giving and receiving end).
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Old 02-01-2008, 11:31 AM   #6
Brandon Oto
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Re: Fight Science: MMA (National Geographic)

Thanks. I was under the same impression, based on theorizing from an MD/DZR friend of mine, but didn't realize it was a common understanding.
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Old 02-01-2008, 11:34 AM   #7
Elliot Fuller
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Re: Fight Science: MMA (National Geographic)

Interesting Michael...

Maybe they dumbed it down a little bit to cater to a wider audience. I would have thought that one of the MMA fighters in the show would have corrected them on it; but now that I think about it, I think it was actually the narrator who made the comments regarding the carotid bloodflow restriction... so maybe that was a post-filming slip up.

I watched the Spec Ops one too. It was interesting but didn't seem like there was actually much in the form of an actual "study" going on in it. In the end they were just kind of like "Yeah, we don't know, they're just really good like that." The ice bath and dehydration tests were impressive though.
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Old 02-01-2008, 12:13 PM   #8
Michael A. Krivka
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Re: Fight Science: MMA (National Geographic)

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Originally Posted by Elliot Fuller View Post
Interesting Michael...

Maybe they dumbed it down a little bit to cater to a wider audience. I would have thought that one of the MMA fighters in the show would have corrected them on it; but now that I think about it, I think it was actually the narrator who made the comments regarding the carotid bloodflow restriction... so maybe that was a post-filming slip up.

I don't remember either... but I've heard the same thing from high-ranking Judo and BJJ practitioners as well. I trained a doctor (vascular surgeon) in JJ and combat submission wrestling and, as far as he was concerned, the only way to do a "carotid choke" was to excise the surrounding tissue and muscle and put surgical clamps on the carotid itself! I've done variations of the choke with rope, wire, chain and steel... even they were what I would consider vascular chokes.

I watched the Spec Ops one too. It was interesting but didn't seem like there was actually much in the form of an actual "study" going on in it. In the end they were just kind of like "Yeah, we don't know, they're just really good like that." The ice bath and dehydration tests were impressive though.
I agree... I think all the test did was dispel some of the common mythos behind how the body responds in extreme conditions. It also highlighted the mental intensity that can be developed to control the body in extreme situations.

All in all both shows were worth watching... if just for a couple laughs!
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Old 02-01-2008, 12:18 PM   #9
Michael A. Krivka
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Re: Fight Science: MMA (National Geographic)

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Originally Posted by Bob Guere View Post
Michael is right on with the rear naked choke.

My first martial arts instructor was an old-school german woman, sweet as can be, but could put a hurting on you. She "demonstrated" the difference between the naked choke and a true carotid choke using forearms, from the front. Much different result and feel (on the giving and receiving end).
A carotid choke from the front would have to compress the larynx and esophagus first to even reach the carotid arteries... so I don't think it would be considered a "carotid" choke. BTW - this was "traditional" choke that was taught to many LEO's in the 50's and 60's that lead to deaths (directly or indirectly) and is pretty much outlawed even in MMA competitions due to the trauma caused to the larynx and esophagus.

Hope this helps!
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Old 02-19-2008, 06:25 PM   #10
Sean Ploskina
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Re: Fight Science: MMA (National Geographic)

Michael,

Where did you get this information about the increased cranial pressure as opposed to a blood restriction? I thought it was the reduced amount of blood flow to the brain that caused unconsciousness (sp?). Then again I was didn't do well in anatomy

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