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Exercises Movements, technique & proper execution

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Old 12-12-2009, 02:12 PM   #31
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Re: Medicine Ball Cleans

Barry -

Yes the traps are strong. In saying that, you've made it very clear that you don't understand anything I've said regarding their proper role in the movement.

Why would this argument not hold for the power clean? You don't understand what a power clean is.
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Old 12-12-2009, 02:24 PM   #32
Barry Cooper
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Re: Medicine Ball Cleans

I went back and reread what you wrote, and don't think I've misunderstood anything. First, as I've said, I do a lot of construction work, which involves hauling around large spools of wire, and a ladder that weighs roughly 80#, and I have ALWAYS found the shrug useful in moving these things around. When I'm moving a spool or ladder around, it is often quite difficult to fully extend my hips. Adding a strong shrug sends things flying.

If I am hearing you correctly, what you are saying is that in an Olympic lift, if you plan on raising your shoulders, it results in a kinesthetic miscue that causes you to short the dynamic leg and hip extension. It also delays said extension, with the result that you lose valuable split seconds, that make all the difference.

If, in a power clean, you do NOT short the leg extension, and append a shrug to the end--if you sequence it properly, which is how I was taught--what is the harm, except to your ability to squat clean maximal loads?
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Old 12-12-2009, 04:28 PM   #33
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Re: Medicine Ball Cleans

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Originally Posted by Barry Cooper View Post
It also delays said extension, with the result that you lose valuable split seconds, that make all the difference.

If, in a power clean, you do NOT short the leg extension, and append a shrug to the end--if you sequence it properly, which is how I was taught--what is the harm, except to your ability to squat clean maximal loads?
To the first part, no. It delays the pull under the bar.

To the second part - a power clean is IDENTICAL to a clean except for the height at which the bar is received and its downward movement arrested. Even if you pull yourself under the bar only a few inches, you're still changing directions and pulling under the bar - not simply accelerating the bar up. So it causes the exact same problem it does in the clean. In fact, with heavy power cleans/snatches, that change of direction and speed of the pull under is arguably even more important because of the limited window to get under the bar and stop it.

I'm glad to hear shrugging things up works for you in your job. No one ever said shrugging weight up would fail - only that doing things differently would be more effective.

I regret getting into this one honestly. Do your thing.
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Old 12-12-2009, 07:42 PM   #34
Barry Cooper
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Re: Medicine Ball Cleans

As far as the first part, that was what I was saying.

I regret that you regret getting into this: I am quite willing both to oppose AND to listen to you. I have seen people teaching the second pull as the shrug, with complete indifference to the scoop; to that extent, I am fully in agreement with your analysis.

Practically, though, I have to say most people are somewhat retarded with respect to how to use their bodies. They don't even know the shrug is an option. Still less do they understand how to rebend your knees to generate maximal force from that tension and resulting explosion.

Please understand that I can both say that there are times when the shrug is useful, and agree with your analysis that on maximal lifts it is counterproductive. What you are saying is not what I have been taught, but I am not so dogmatic that I am incapable of seeing that you are bright, experienced, and have done your best to think these things through.

Perhaps it is perfectly obvious that if the task is to maximize the safe capacity of people to lift heavy weights from the ground to their shoulder or overhead your pedagogical progression is best.

At the same time, please understand my position that more than one perspective on the general utility of teaching people to lift ALL objects that way MAY not be as optimal as introducing the idea--new to many or most--that you can use your traps too.
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Old 12-12-2009, 08:09 PM   #35
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Medicine Ball Cleans

In my experience, the fewer variables you introduce when trying to teach a complex movement, the better. If you take someone who is "completely retarded with respect to how to use their body," and teach them that a squat clean is one way, and a power clean is another way, and an odd-object lift is something else again, you're just going to end up with a mess. Teach the most fundamental version of the movement and don't worry them with variations until they've got that version down.

Also, realize that their early experiences are the *only* chance you'll have to work with a blank slate. After a session or two, everything else you show them will be seen as a modification to what they already think they know. Best to make sure what's written on that blank slate is correct. You're doing them a disservice if you teach something that they'll have to unlearn later on. If you teach them to pull with their traps, then that's exactly what they'll do, no matter how carefully you explain that it's not the way to handle maximal loads.

Katherine

Last edited by Katherine Derbyshire : 12-12-2009 at 08:13 PM.
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Old 12-12-2009, 08:15 PM   #36
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Medicine Ball Cleans

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Originally Posted by Barry Cooper View Post
Perhaps it is perfectly obvious that if the task is to maximize the safe capacity of people to lift heavy weights from the ground to their shoulder or overhead your pedagogical progression is best.
What else would the task be? If you can handle 100lbs, 50lbs is easy, even if it's a funny shape. The reverse is not at all true.

Katherine
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Old 12-12-2009, 08:33 PM   #37
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Re: Medicine Ball Cleans

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Originally Posted by Barry Cooper View Post
The traps are some of the strongest muscles in the body. They can handle prodigious loads.
Not compared to the legs.

Katherine
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Old 12-14-2009, 04:44 PM   #38
Robert Callahan
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Re: Medicine Ball Cleans

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Originally Posted by Barry Cooper View Post
And for the critics in general of medicine ball cleans, how many of you are over 55 and out of shape?
I have taught 53 year old out of shape women how to snatch with a 15lb bar without a shrug and without them getting to "scared" of the bar....


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And OF COURSE elite weightlifters will do well in picking up odd objects. The discussion pertains to very normal people who will never be all that good at anything.
The point is that the better the mechanics with a barbell the better their mechanics will be in general, barbell or not, elite athlete or not.

The argument that the minutiae of the movement are irrelevant for "very normal people" could also be used for squats. I mean how often are you actually going to do a full depth squat with a load? Not too often, so lets all just do half squats instead because really normal people don't need to worry about the the full ROM since after all they are just "very normal people who will never be all that good at anything" anyways...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Cooper View Post
Practically, though, I have to say most people are somewhat retarded with respect to how to use their bodies. They don't even know the shrug is an option. Still less do they understand how to rebend your knees to generate maximal force from that tension and resulting explosion.
People do not need to understand these things, they will happen without thought when they put their bodies into the correct positions. Only when a person is overloaded with information about how their bodies should be moving and they begin to overanalyze do they muck it all up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Cooper View Post
At the same time, please understand my position that more than one perspective on the general utility of teaching people to lift ALL objects that way MAY not be as optimal as introducing the idea--new to many or most--that you can use your traps too.
The implement does not matter. The most efficient means of moving a weight to over head or to the shoulders is going to use the same mechanics regardless of shape.
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Old 12-15-2009, 10:47 AM   #39
Graeme Howland
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Re: Medicine Ball Cleans

Re: shrugging odd objects. From the strongman training videos i've seen, there is no shrug mentioned in lifting atlas stones, axle cleans etc, it is all hip power to get the object to shoulder level, and these movements do not appear to involve a third pull under the object. I'm in full agreement with Greg on this one, get strong/fast/powerful using the most efficient mechanics with a barbell and it will translate into non-barbell related situations better than learning the wrong way.
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Old 12-16-2009, 12:14 AM   #40
Alexander Martin
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Re: Medicine Ball Cleans

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Originally Posted by Jim Denofa View Post
I have never done medicine ball cleans with any of my clients ever. I think the movement is hokey and does not translate at all well to the end goal which is of course barbell cleans. Medicine ball cleans make you good at medicine ball cleans.
Exactly.
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