CrossFit Discussion Board  

Go Back   CrossFit Discussion Board > CrossFit Forum > Fitness
CrossFit Home Forum Site Rules CrossFit FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-16-2008, 01:48 AM   #221
Charles Whitworth
Member Charles Whitworth is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Great Falls  MT
Posts: 34
Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Gross View Post
Did you really just say that the movement of power cleaning bags of concrete is more like a kettlebell swing than a power clean?
LOL




....
 
Old 12-16-2008, 08:10 AM   #222
Barry Cooper
Member Barry Cooper is offline
 
Barry Cooper's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Louisville  KY
Posts: 2,188
Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

Here's the basic problem. First, you are either trolling or defending Poliquin because he's your hero. I really don't care which.

Second, I want to be a part of a program where people like Kallista Pappas, Jason Khalipa, and Josh Everett (with severely torn hands) gut it out through a demanding workout like that. CrossFit is 90% mental. The other half is physical.

Finally, the basic problem Poliquin has is that he doesn't understand what we do. Let's say you go up to him and say "Oh Guruji, these CrossFit people are having a competition. I want you to prepare me for it." He will say, "OK, what are the events?" You will respond "Oh Master, I don't know. They won't tell you until a few days before." He will respond "How can you possibly prepare if you don't know the events? Specific adaptation to imposed demands and all that."

The answer, of course, is CrossFit. And if the Master had prepared you for the last games without doing high rep squat clean and jerks, you would have embarassed yourself.

This is the difference between what he does and what we do.

Frankly, I could care less about your concerns. You're standing on the sidelines while the rest of us are doing. If you want to wet your pants every time you think about doing something somebody says is dangerous, then you are not in the right place with the right group. As far as I can see, there is no sound purpose for continuing this discussion other than to annoy people, or do what you can to diminish CrossFit.

Either way, I'm done commenting on this thread.
 
Old 12-16-2008, 08:41 AM   #223
Barry Cooper
Member Barry Cooper is offline
 
Barry Cooper's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Louisville  KY
Posts: 2,188
Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

Actually, I lied. There is a potential for a more general summation that might be helpful.

First off, I think we could agree that for any given person 30 reps with a pvc pipe would not be demanding or overly taxing. For a strong man, 30 reps with the bar would not be demanding. Logically, then, we can infer that in all scenarios there is a weight threshold below which there is no potential for a properly trained athlete to deviate in their form from proper mechanics.

GPP is in the broadest sense being prepared for anything. This includes any possible movement pattern, in any combination with any other movement pattern, for any number of reps. Since 30 rep Clean and Jerks fall within the set "Possible Movement patterns", they logically can be included within OUR movement patterns. The scheme could 25 reps, or could be the 75 Power Snatch with 75 pound workout, whose name I've forgotten.

Pragmatically, we tend to repeat certain patterns (like Grace) for the simple reasons that mentally it helps to have some repetition, and physically you have a good workout.

Now, having established that there are safe weight ranges for any given number of reps, then the question becomes how to extend that range. Is there any means other than something like Progressive Overload and adaptation? Is there any way to increase the weight you can handle safely other than to do that movement?

I like the high rep workouts just because they are unrelentingly intense, and unique in the challenge they present. I may never have to do a muscle up in real life, or lift something heavy explosively 30 times. But that's not why I train. I train because I like being strong. And if I'm doing movements other people aren't doing, I am stronger than them in those movements.

More generally, it seems to me that Poliquin is guilty of failing to understand synergistic thinking. CrossFit is built on synergies.

For example, in classical (retrograde) thinking, if you want stronger biceps, you do curls. This is logical. If you want to work a muscle, you isolate it. If you want explosiveness, you do O-lifts. That is their purpose, their slot in life. If you take them out of that slot, you have misclassified and abused them. This is what you seem to saying, in agreement with your understanding of Poliquin.

But the essence of CrossFit is that if you combine intensity, variation, and functionality, you achieve a whole greater than the parts. Rather than do weights M-W-F, and run T-TH-Sa, you do something that appears to be only a fraction of what you were doing before--certainly timewise--and get better results. You build your biceps without doing curls. You build your wind running very little. Your deadlift goes up without deadlifting very often.

This is the reason that I get so frustrated with people who critique CrossFit without having done it. You appear to have done many of the WOD's, but not Grace. Grace ALWAYS says to scale, using a weight as light as a broomstick if needed.

People look at the programming, but there is so much more than meets the eye. The first thing you notice is that the WODS are always harder than they look (you figure out never to take anything for granted quickly). But over time, you also notice how much more you get, for seemingly less.

This is not a program for competing in a Strongman. It's not for elite marathoners. It's for ordinary people who want to be fit and healthy, and for people whose lives and the lives of others may depend at some point on their physical preparedness.
 
Old 12-16-2008, 10:12 AM   #224
George Noble
Member George Noble is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Northampton  Northants, UK
Posts: 243
Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq View Post
The text you qouted doesn't disagree it really kinda avoids the question. I'm not supporting Poliquin, nor using the argument "well poliquin says" i'm simply stating he raises a valid question you nor anyone else has really answered. Using the "it's in the wod's, and the wod's work" is a bad argument too.
You asked what good high rep olympic lifts do as opposed to high reps of a less technical exercise. The answer

he demands of those workouts is well beyond a simple metabolic conditioning stimulus: the ability to maintain explosive power, balance, coordination, agility, etc... while facing ever increasing levels of fatigue is unparalleled due to the HIGHLY TECHNICAL NATURE of the lifts.

is a perfect answer to your question, and you haven't addressed it.
 
Old 12-16-2008, 04:34 PM   #225
Alex Europa
Affiliate Alex Europa is offline
 
Alex Europa's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Waialua  HI
Posts: 1,016
Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq View Post
The text you qouted doesn't disagree it really kinda avoids the question. I'm not supporting Poliquin, nor using the argument "well poliquin says" i'm simply stating he raises a valid question you nor anyone else has really answered. Using the "it's in the wod's, and the wod's work" is a bad argument too.
How does it avoid the question? The question was, "What does a high rep O-lifting workout offer other than metcon?" I gave you several items to ponder over.

But discussing anything CrossFit related with you is worse than standing in front of a closed store: you waste a lot of time and get nothing accomplished. (Sorry for the lame analogy, I had a few more colorful ones in mind, but they most definitely aren't PC)

Hell, I've seen you disagree with a quote about CrossFit from GREG GLASSMAN.

I should probably be careful so that you don't complain that I'm harassing you again. Oh well, if that's what I get for rebutting every wrong post that you make, then it'll be worth it.

- Alex
__________________
CrossFit Barbarian Fitness / Flickr
"Every man dies. Not every man truly lives."
 
Old 12-17-2008, 05:43 AM   #226
Scott Borre
Member Scott Borre is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Tyrone  GA
Posts: 420
Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

Poliquin is right in stating that CrossFit isn't right for everybody. He's wrong in assuming that CrossFit intends to be everything for everybody. He's likely right that people shouldn't do complex/technical lifts without really good training. But possibly wrong as well, as many of the movements are somewhat natural (such as the clean and jerk, but not really true with the snatch).
__________________
Scott
 
Old 12-17-2008, 06:07 AM   #227
Barry Cooper
Member Barry Cooper is offline
 
Barry Cooper's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Louisville  KY
Posts: 2,188
Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

I don't think anyone here is saying Poliquin is dumb, or that he doesn't know tons of stuff we don't. Certainly I'm not.

The gripe is simply that he is comparing our program to a standard we are not trying to meet. He is evaluating our programming from within his own paradigm, when in fact we have evolved our own paradigm, and are content that our programming is consistent with the goals we set out to achieve. No doubt we can and will do better, but certainly there is nothing in the main site WOD's or the many WOD's posted by affiliates which is inconsistent with the objective of performing well across broad time and modal domains.

I should never say I'm done commenting. I'm much too windy, and when I get wound up I never stop.
 
Old 12-17-2008, 06:48 AM   #228
Alex Europa
Affiliate Alex Europa is offline
 
Alex Europa's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Waialua  HI
Posts: 1,016
Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Cooper View Post
I should never say I'm done commenting. I'm much too windy, and when I get wound up I never stop.
You know, I've tried doing this too and it doesn't work for me either. Oh well. We'll stick together!

- Alex
__________________
CrossFit Barbarian Fitness / Flickr
"Every man dies. Not every man truly lives."
 
Old 12-17-2008, 11:14 AM   #229
Phillip Garrison
Banned Phillip Garrison is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Mesa  AZ
Posts: 1,382
Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Gross View Post
Did you really just say that the movement of power cleaning bags of concrete is more like a kettlebell swing than a power clean?
No I didn't say that. But hoisting a concrete bag to your shoulder isn't that close to a power clean either. If you want to improve hip/glute power and triple extension power a kettlebell clean or snatch will do the job as well as a barbell power clean. That way you get a good moderate repeated power production improvement without degrading your power clean technique and hampering peak power production.
 
Old 12-17-2008, 11:16 AM   #230
Phillip Garrison
Banned Phillip Garrison is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Mesa  AZ
Posts: 1,382
Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Whitworth View Post
It's not a "bad argument" because you don't understand it. If you can't understand this you shouldn't be debating it. Here it is one more time..... WODs can be range of sets/low, mid, high reps/exercises. It's up to the person. Whatever the case, the WODs on the main board will cover it all over time. Thats why it is called CF.
Ahhh yes the old, if you don't agree than you obviously don't understand CF argument. Let me ask you specifically, what is the main reason for doing an explosive movement like cleans and snatches and learning proper technique in these lifts?
 
Closed Thread


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Charles Staley 's Gym Rules John Walsh Stuff and Nonsense 13 06-11-2009 05:56 PM
Charles Poliquin: A question of strength Kristofer Shamloo Fitness 21 04-24-2008 07:04 PM
Poliquin Thinks DB Cleans & Snatches "stupid and dangerous" Becca Borawski Exercises 9 03-02-2007 03:40 AM
Charles Staley copies CrossFit? Neal Winkler Community 16 11-12-2006 07:06 PM
Bryce Lane and Charles Staley Gary Wetherholt Workout of the Day 4 04-18-2006 02:25 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
CrossFit is a registered trademark of CrossFit Inc.