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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 01-28-2014, 02:38 PM   #1
Hakan Yilmazkaya
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Expectations vs feelings

Hey there, i need somebody to help me. 5"11, 184 lbs, %18 bf 24 yo. I have been doing Justin Lascek's cfwf program for 1.5 months and i've seen great results so far. I'm eating 3500 calories a day including 200 grams of protein. I've gained 6 pounds, my lifts increased, my max are;

Squat: 255 lbs (up from 200)
Bench press: 177.5 lbs (up from 122.5)
Shoulder press: 150 lbs (up from 100)
Deadlift: 335 lbs (up from 240)

I'm a lot stronger than before but the problem is, i almost lost all my condition and agility. This program has 2 days of conditioning but i'm breathless when i do my local box's wods. My goal is to get bigger and lift heavier but i'm not feeling as an athlete like i used to do 2 months ago. I couldn't lift heavy but i was like a monster, never got tired. And the most important, i loved the feeling after finishing the wods, it was so addictive that i was working out 6 days a week and on the rest day i was dieing for training. Now i'm feeling like a powerlifter more than a crossfitter, which i never wanted to happen.

Maybe this is a bullsh.t thread but my problem is, i like the results but i don't like how i feel now and need a change. I have something in mind. I was planning to continue doing the program till the end of march (tennis season starts) than start cutting till summer. Our wods are mostly heavy hybrid wods (mostly including heavy lifting), we never do a strength workout and than a metcon, we just do one complete wod for approx 15 mins and finish it. If i leave it now and just go for my local box wods for 5 days a week and continue eating for gaining, will it be enough to continue gaining lean muscle mass without any additional strength program or another route ? Another question is, will crossfit wods be enough for keeping my strength levels the same ? I mean how much my squat max will reduce 3 months later if i quit the program right now ? Thanks, sorry if i couldn't explain myself well enough.
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Old 01-28-2014, 06:16 PM   #2
David Meverden
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Re: Expectations vs feelings

Regarding not feeling athletic: keep the long view in mind. You've got at least 10 more near peak years in you. Don't shoot your progress now in the foot after only a couple months because you get winded more easily. Great progress but you're still not very strong and shouldn't quit now.

Quote:
If i leave it now and just go for my local box wods for 5 days a week and continue eating for gaining, will it be enough to continue gaining lean muscle mass without any additional strength program or another route ?
It wasn't enough before, so it won't be enough now. Granted, you probably weren't eating enough before, but people don't get very strong without a dedicated strength program.

Quote:
Another question is, will crossfit wods be enough for keeping my strength levels the same ? I mean how much my squat max will reduce 3 months later if i quit the program right now ? Thanks, sorry if i couldn't explain myself well enough.
Based on my experience on pure strength programs and then going back to CF you'll probably lose 25# off your squat once you stop if your CF program doesn't have dedicated heavy lifting.

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Originally Posted by Hakan Yilmazkaya View Post
I have something in mind. I was planning to continue doing the program till the end of march (tennis season starts) than start cutting till summer.
That sounds OK, but as I said above, you will lose some strength.

What you should do: Talk to the coach at the box, see if you can work something out that has more strength stuff. If that doesn't work out you can look for another box or get a home gym and look into hybrid programs of your own (I'm a big fan of the Ultimate Advantage program, but it takes some skill to implement and it really helps to have a workout partner).
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Old 01-29-2014, 12:55 AM   #3
Hakan Yilmazkaya
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Re: Expectations vs feelings

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Originally Posted by David Meverden View Post
Regarding not feeling athletic: keep the long view in mind. You've got at least 10 more near peak years in you. Don't shoot your progress now in the foot after only a couple months because you get winded more easily. Great progress but you're still not very strong and shouldn't quit now.



It wasn't enough before, so it won't be enough now. Granted, you probably weren't eating enough before, but people don't get very strong without a dedicated strength program.



Based on my experience on pure strength programs and then going back to CF you'll probably lose 25# off your squat once you stop if your CF program doesn't have dedicated heavy lifting.



That sounds OK, but as I said above, you will lose some strength.

What you should do: Talk to the coach at the box, see if you can work something out that has more strength stuff. If that doesn't work out you can look for another box or get a home gym and look into hybrid programs of your own (I'm a big fan of the Ultimate Advantage program, but it takes some skill to implement and it really helps to have a workout partner).
Well that was clear enough, thanks a lot man, really appreciated.

I want to ask you one more thing. When i check crossfit mayhem's or crossfit football's wods, i see they do some squat, bench, shoulder press or deadlift first (only one exercise a day for mayhem), and than they do a metcon to finish the workout. Do you think i can keep gaining by doing a compound move before the wods and than do the wods ? In cfwf, you do 2x squats, 1x bench press, 1x shoulder press and 1x deadlift a week and do some dips, chinups, pullups etc. I'm just wondering if it gives the same results if i just spread these workouts day by day. I mean on monday i can do a heavy squat first and than go for wod, on tuesday i bench press and deadlift than wod, on thursday i go for another squat with wod afterwards and finish the week with a shoulder press + wod combo bla bla. We always do pullups, dips or chin ups on wods so maybe there is no need to do them additionally, what do you think ?

Last edited by Hakan Yilmazkaya : 01-29-2014 at 01:15 AM.
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Old 01-29-2014, 08:45 AM   #4
Brendan McNamar
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Re: Expectations vs feelings

It is up to your goals.

You can still add a lot of lower body strength without any size gain.

Conditioning takes 8-12 weeks to build back up.

It is a trade off between strength and conditioning.

You can get strong fast.

You can build your conditioning fast.

or

You can get stronger slow but build conditioning fairly fast.

In CrossFit is is all trade offs.
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Old 01-29-2014, 09:11 AM   #5
David Meverden
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Re: Expectations vs feelings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakan Yilmazkaya View Post
Well that was clear enough, thanks a lot man, really appreciated.

I want to ask you one more thing. When i check crossfit mayhem's or crossfit football's wods, i see they do some squat, bench, shoulder press or deadlift first (only one exercise a day for mayhem), and than they do a metcon to finish the workout. Do you think i can keep gaining by doing a compound move before the wods and than do the wods ? In cfwf, you do 2x squats, 1x bench press, 1x shoulder press and 1x deadlift a week and do some dips, chinups, pullups etc. I'm just wondering if it gives the same results if i just spread these workouts day by day. I mean on monday i can do a heavy squat first and than go for wod, on tuesday i bench press and deadlift than wod, on thursday i go for another squat with wod afterwards and finish the week with a shoulder press + wod combo bla bla. We always do pullups, dips or chin ups on wods so maybe there is no need to do them additionally, what do you think ?
CFFB is a tried and true program and you would keep getting stronger on that program. Using a similar concept, doing one or two big lifts before whatever random WoD your local affiliate programs, should work for a while for you too give where you're at, particularly if the WoDs at the affiliate aren't too long. The results won't be as good as with a program designed from the ground up to balance strength and conditioning, however.
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Old 01-29-2014, 09:41 AM   #6
Hakan Yilmazkaya
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Re: Expectations vs feelings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brendan McNamar View Post
It is up to your goals.

You can still add a lot of lower body strength without any size gain.

Conditioning takes 8-12 weeks to build back up.

It is a trade off between strength and conditioning.

You can get strong fast.

You can build your conditioning fast.

or

You can get stronger slow but build conditioning fairly fast.

In CrossFit is is all trade offs.
Well i thought i was doing something wrong, maybe that was another reason to lose my motivation with the program that i'm on now. I was really fast and i had great condition, losing it all in just 1.5 months forced me to think i'm going out of crossfit borders and turning into a bodybuilder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Meverden View Post
CFFB is a tried and true program and you would keep getting stronger on that program. Using a similar concept, doing one or two big lifts before whatever random WoD your local affiliate programs, should work for a while for you too give where you're at, particularly if the WoDs at the affiliate aren't too long. The results won't be as good as with a program designed from the ground up to balance strength and conditioning, however.
I wish i could train seperately but the problem is they all know and love me in my box. I can say i'm on squat or bench press today but i can't say your wods don't suit me and i'm doing another wod. I actually tried to do that, i followed mayhem's wods for a while but i was doing wall balls when everybody else was on power cleans, it was just weird, i couldn't feel comfortable with it.

Thank you again my friend, i think i'll try and see how body responds 1 lift + wod thing. Even if it fails, it's an experience and i will not do the same mistake again after summer.
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Old 01-29-2014, 09:54 AM   #7
Eric Montgomery
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Re: Expectations vs feelings

If you're going to do 1 lift + conditioning 4 days per week, I'd recommend looking at 5/3/1.
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Old 01-29-2014, 10:33 AM   #8
Jason A Smith
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Re: Expectations vs feelings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakan Yilmazkaya View Post
Hey there, i need somebody to help me. 5"11, 184 lbs, %18 bf 24 yo. I have been doing Justin Lascek's cfwf program for 1.5 months and i've seen great results so far. I'm eating 3500 calories a day including 200 grams of protein. I've gained 6 pounds, my lifts increased, my max are;

Squat: 255 lbs (up from 200)
Bench press: 177.5 lbs (up from 122.5)
Shoulder press: 150 lbs (up from 100)
Deadlift: 335 lbs (up from 240)

I'm a lot stronger than before but the problem is, i almost lost all my condition and agility. This program has 2 days of conditioning but i'm breathless when i do my local box's wods. My goal is to get bigger and lift heavier but i'm not feeling as an athlete like i used to do 2 months ago. I couldn't lift heavy but i was like a monster, never got tired. And the most important, i loved the feeling after finishing the wods, it was so addictive that i was working out 6 days a week and on the rest day i was dieing for training. Now i'm feeling like a powerlifter more than a crossfitter, which i never wanted to happen.

Maybe this is a bullsh.t thread but my problem is, i like the results but i don't like how i feel now and need a change. I have something in mind. I was planning to continue doing the program till the end of march (tennis season starts) than start cutting till summer. Our wods are mostly heavy hybrid wods (mostly including heavy lifting), we never do a strength workout and than a metcon, we just do one complete wod for approx 15 mins and finish it. If i leave it now and just go for my local box wods for 5 days a week and continue eating for gaining, will it be enough to continue gaining lean muscle mass without any additional strength program or another route ? Another question is, will crossfit wods be enough for keeping my strength levels the same ? I mean how much my squat max will reduce 3 months later if i quit the program right now ? Thanks, sorry if i couldn't explain myself well enough.
What are your goals ? If you want to be a "good" Crossfitter, it looks like you still need a pile more strength.

Here are some numbers for you to digest, most guys who qualify on to Regionals - good crossfitters - have approximately these sorts of numbers

Squat - 400#
DL - 450#
Snatch - 225#
C & J - 275#
Fran - 2:30
400m run - 1:00
5K run - sub 20:00
FGB - 400+ reps

Depending on what your goal is will dictate what advice I would give. Ultimately at your age and training age you will want to start with the harder stuff, ie getting stronger. Once your lifting looks more like what is above you head back into more of a balanced approach and become that firebreathing guy at the gym.

If those are your actual lifting numbers what is "heavy" about your affiliates workouts ? My guess is what you think is heavy and actually heavy are not exactly the same thing.

For just getting stronger (and staying conditioned) CFFB or 5/3/1 are good programs. If you want to compete at Crossfit you will also need to learn and become very proficient with Olympic lifting.

How are your other skills, DUs, MUs, pistols etc. ? Your conditioning etc will come back without too much effort. Strength takes a while to build up but once you have it, for the most part it stays with you.
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Old 01-29-2014, 12:39 PM   #9
Hakan Yilmazkaya
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Re: Expectations vs feelings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason A Smith View Post
What are your goals ? If you want to be a "good" Crossfitter, it looks like you still need a pile more strength.

Here are some numbers for you to digest, most guys who qualify on to Regionals - good crossfitters - have approximately these sorts of numbers

Squat - 400#
DL - 450#
Snatch - 225#
C & J - 275#
Fran - 2:30
400m run - 1:00
5K run - sub 20:00
FGB - 400+ reps

Depending on what your goal is will dictate what advice I would give. Ultimately at your age and training age you will want to start with the harder stuff, ie getting stronger. Once your lifting looks more like what is above you head back into more of a balanced approach and become that firebreathing guy at the gym.

If those are your actual lifting numbers what is "heavy" about your affiliates workouts ? My guess is what you think is heavy and actually heavy are not exactly the same thing.

For just getting stronger (and staying conditioned) CFFB or 5/3/1 are good programs. If you want to compete at Crossfit you will also need to learn and become very proficient with Olympic lifting.

How are your other skills, DUs, MUs, pistols etc. ? Your conditioning etc will come back without too much effort. Strength takes a while to build up but once you have it, for the most part it stays with you.
I'm have a narrow bone structure naturally, so my goal is to get stronger and bigger to beat this disadvantage. But i don't wanna be a bodybuilder, being an athlete is more important than any of them, that's why i'm so bored now, i don't feel like an athlete like i used to do 2 months ago. I don't care about regionals or any other professional thing so, i mean i would love to do crossfit at that level but i'm not dieing for it. I'm aware i need more strength and mass but i just need to change something because i'm not enjoying it without hearing my heart beat like crazy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Montgomery View Post
If you're going to do 1 lift + conditioning 4 days per week, I'd recommend looking at 5/3/1.
Dude 5/3/1 looks fine. I go to the box 5 days a week, i just don't wanna seperate the conditioning and weight training days and 5/3/1 seems good for it.

I have some question for you about this template. I will be very happy if you share your knowledge.

- Would i be overtraining if i mix the main compound and assistance lift of the day with the wod of my local box's ?

- Do i need to do the rest/pause template or is it optional ?

- For example i have done military press + lateral raise as main compound + upper body assistance, than should i do wods mostly hitting upper body again or aim for lower body exercises. I don't have the chance to change or modify wods but i can decide if i should do squat, deadlift, bench or shoulder press this day depending on the wod. As soon as he doesn't tell which day to do them, it should be ok to just aim for doing each of them once a week and create your own schedule.
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Old 01-29-2014, 08:35 PM   #10
Jason A Smith
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Re: Expectations vs feelings

Still curious what the goal is. I understand your slight frame. I weigh in at 170#, stronger does not always equal bigger. Most competitive guys are about your size right now.

I was curious what your end goal was. If it is just general physical fitness and feeling more like an athlete and less like a lifter all the while improving strength CFFB is the go to is you ask me. Start on the amateur program and follow the program for a year. You will like the results.

Never done 5/3/1 but lots of people seem to successfully overlay it on top of some conditioning work.

Best of luck in whatever you choose. Just give it time, at least 9-12 months and see where it takes you.
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