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Old 08-12-2008, 08:12 AM   #11
Andy Shirley
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Re: Lawsuit brought against CF affiliate

And don't think that a standard waiver would really protect you.

This is also getting some action on the main page rest day comments today.
http://www.crossfit.com/mt-archive2/004003.html
unknown if safe, sometimes things get through the filters
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Old 08-12-2008, 08:39 AM   #12
John C. Brown
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Re: Lawsuit brought against CF affiliate

Stephen,

Even if they had a rock solid waiver, some state courts do not acknowledge hold harm waivers as a waiver of the right to sue. Virginia is one of those states. When I was doing a lot of skydiving in Suffolk we would have guys/ girls come out to do tandem jumps, they would sign the waivers, go through training, jump etc... Then on landing when the jumpmaster asked them to pull their legs up to avoid dragging and breaking them they wouldn't(not necessarily on purpose but...) and then sue the drop zone. It is a tough break for the gyms in those states, but one that should be looked into before training people.

On another note, this is not the first time this has happened. The integrity that Coach has shown in addressing the Rhabdo issue is unbelievable, and necessary from the point of making sure the consumer is educated on what they are getting into, but it is still the responsibility of the trainer to gauge where their clients are with relation to GPP and continue to assess throughout the workout, scaling back as necessary. Still, the relative number of participants to the number of injury is striking, almost as striking as the number of previously injured participants compared with the now functional participants.

One final note (and this may seem very harsh, but sometimes the truth hurts). Natural selection is a sonofa "B" (sorry for the harsh use of letters), and some people do not qualify for procreation. While it is unfortunate that this gentleman (I was a former IT in the Nav, other quals notwithstanding) got injured, it is noteworthy that CrossFitters, regardless of their level are giants among men. Not that the population is putting up much of a fight in this regard, but the goals that we chase are amazing and not for the weak of heart, or for those that in previous times would have died along the way.
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Old 08-12-2008, 08:45 AM   #13
Daniel Fannin
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Re: Lawsuit brought against CF affiliate

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Originally Posted by Casey Raiford View Post



Facts rarely impede safety.
Yes. There have already been commanders here banning high-intensity workouts and sports, though not as a result of this article.
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Old 08-12-2008, 08:54 AM   #14
Robert D Taylor Jr
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Re: Lawsuit brought against CF affiliate

This guy getting hurt might be partially on the trainer, but by suing he just about instantly gets a pansy pass. He was hurt after CF publicized it's rhabdo situation. He got free medical from uncle sugar, and his other injuries are probably fairly common in weight training, or from carrying boxes with poor form. Sometimes you have to look in the mirror and say I did this to myself in order to heal internally.
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Old 08-12-2008, 09:01 AM   #15
Bob Guere
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Re: Lawsuit brought against CF affiliate

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Originally Posted by Daniel Fannin View Post
Yes. There have already been commanders here banning high-intensity workouts and sports, though not as a result of this article.
I was talking to a SEAL friend of mine and the teams are discouraging CF right now because of the increased injuries too. But to be fair, it's because of the high-intensity balls-to-the-wall competitive nature of the teams that tends to drive folks to the level of injury, IMHO. But I argue you want a little of that in this group of folks minus injury, of course.

I've brought my wife and two friends into the fray so far, and they have all started out slow (brand-X scaled) and we always learn the moves before we work them out. They have all made it to the "Pack" or higher on most occasions and go all out sometimes and we've only had minor aches and pains. My wife and I have both pulled muscles early on with bad form, but that was 100% our fault. No rhabdo.

I think most of us agree that some due diligence is all that is necessary (and leave the ego at the door) to prevent this from becoming a problem, especially in affiliates who have maybe received certs but do not stay active with their CF-sponsored follow-on training/certs.
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Old 08-12-2008, 09:12 AM   #16
Evan Fitts
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Re: Lawsuit brought against CF affiliate

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Originally Posted by John C. Brown View Post

One final note (and this may seem very harsh, but sometimes the truth hurts). Natural selection is a sonofa "B" (sorry for the harsh use of letters), and some people do not qualify for procreation. While it is unfortunate that this gentleman (I was a former IT in the Nav, other quals notwithstanding) got injured, it is noteworthy that CrossFitters, regardless of their level are giants among men. Not that the population is putting up much of a fight in this regard, but the goals that we chase are amazing and not for the weak of heart, or for those that in previous times would have died along the way.
It's absolutely hilarious that you suggest this was a result of natural selection. First, Mimms is still alive. Second, the article states nothing about him losing his ability to procreate. Finally, the next time you have a friend or family member injured in a manner that forecloses their ability to procreate, try reassuring them that it's all a result of a certain anthropologist's theory on evolutionary science. Please report back how well that works out for you.

It's amazing how some people in this community act. Someone gets injured, and it's all a big joke because it flies in the face of doing things "rx'd." This is not the same situation as if Mimms had gone to the gym and pushed himself to injury. He had a "trainer" help him get there. It doesn't mean he is "weak of heart," it just means somebody dropped the ball.

Trainers, at least ideally, should have some form of specialized knowledge that assists them in helping their trainees avoid this situation. I do not know anything about this particular trainer, so I will direct my comment toward the crossfit trainer certification program more generally: $1,000, a plane ticket to California, and two days off work do not, in and of themselves, qualify anyone to train others, regardless of whether CF.com ordains it as so. And me saying this does not mean that I am saying that there is a better system out there, only that this one is not sufficient.

Bottom line: if you hold yourself out as having superior knowledge and ability in a particular area, and you allow others to employ you to assist them in that area, expect to be sued when things go awry.
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Old 08-12-2008, 09:25 AM   #17
Barry Cooper
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Re: Lawsuit brought against CF affiliate

I don't have time to locate the article at the moment, but a while back I posted one indicating that something like 40% of recruits get mild rhabdo in Basic Training.

These things dont' help, to be sure, but they are not showstoppers either.
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Old 08-12-2008, 09:43 AM   #18
Aushion Chatman
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Re: Lawsuit brought against CF affiliate

Whoa, some good points being brought up here...

To me it depends on the situation as to how much the trainer would be to blame. If it was an injury from poor form I'd be willing to harp more on the coach, but being it was rhabdo that's a hard sell for me. Was it because the kid had never done GHD situps and the coach had him jump up and do 150? Or was it the kid was given a WOD of which he was familiar with the movements, and he just went too hard...or didn't tell his coach he'd ran and swam earlier in the day and this was his third workout...etc...

Too much is not known to start throwing around accusations IMO.

I agree with what Evan said about the lvl I certs...but that is a different thread.
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Old 08-12-2008, 10:43 AM   #19
John C. Brown
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Re: Lawsuit brought against CF affiliate

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Originally Posted by Evan Fitts View Post
It's absolutely hilarious that you suggest this was a result of natural selection. First, Mimms is still alive. Second, the article states nothing about him losing his ability to procreate. Finally, the next time you have a friend or family member injured in a manner that forecloses their ability to procreate, try reassuring them that it's all a result of a certain anthropologist's theory on evolutionary science. Please report back how well that works out for you.

It's amazing how some people in this community act. Someone gets injured, and it's all a big joke because it flies in the face of doing things "rx'd." This is not the same situation as if Mimms had gone to the gym and pushed himself to injury. He had a "trainer" help him get there. It doesn't mean he is "weak of heart," it just means somebody dropped the ball.

Trainers, at least ideally, should have some form of specialized knowledge that assists them in helping their trainees avoid this situation. I do not know anything about this particular trainer, so I will direct my comment toward the crossfit trainer certification program more generally: $1,000, a plane ticket to California, and two days off work do not, in and of themselves, qualify anyone to train others, regardless of whether CF.com ordains it as so. And me saying this does not mean that I am saying that there is a better system out there, only that this one is not sufficient.

Bottom line: if you hold yourself out as having superior knowledge and ability in a particular area, and you allow others to employ you to assist them in that area, expect to be sued when things go awry.
First of all, natural selection is survival of the fittest, not that I need to explain that as you seem intelligent. In days past his weakness and lack of medical facilitation would have potentially left him dead, and thereby unable to procreate.

Second, I call my mom and dad each and every time I injure myself and thank them for the weak genes that they passed on to me. Often I am joking as the injuries are almost always a result of my ignorant pride (I fall into that SEAL group mentioned above), but almost as often I am just being honest. That honesty is never withheld from people because they are a family member and in fact I am (as I should be) most brutally honest with those I care about, regardless of the outcome or how I may hurt their feelings. And by the way, I don't have to report back to you about anything, but even if I did, I would do so with a clear conscience, because I would know that I spoke my mind instead of insulting my family or friends by lying to them about my feelings.

Finally, I agree with you that the trainer is ultimately at fault. This person trusted the trainer to keep them safe, the trainer failed and as a result will most likely pay the consequences. Trainers have a responsibility to their clients to provide a safe (relatively) training environment and if you would have read my whole post instead of just the controversial part at the end, you would have seen that I said that trainers must know when to back people off. By the way, the fact that Mimms was able to push himself that hard most likely indicates some level of disfunction somewhere, as most people will shut down before they reach the level of intensity that led to his rhabdo. I don't care if it was as Rx'd or not, hell, jumping pull ups yield one of the highest likelihood of rhabdo out there.
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:47 AM   #20
John Velandra
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Re: Lawsuit brought against CF affiliate

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Originally Posted by Casey Raiford View Post
Exactly!

And we'll all have to wear helmets to work out, have 19 corpsmen standing by and attend sensing sessions quarterly.
Don't forget risk assessment on all training and potential training.
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