CrossFit Discussion Board  

Go Back   CrossFit Discussion Board > CrossFit Forum > Exercises
CrossFit Home Forum Site Rules CrossFit FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Exercises Movements, technique & proper execution

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-25-2011, 09:48 PM   #1
Pär Larsson
Member Pär Larsson is offline
 
Pär Larsson's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: San Diego  CA
Posts: 178
"Grace" Squat Clean v. Power Clean

http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/faq.html#WOD0 SFW
Quote:
Grace
Clean and Jerk 135 lbs
30 reps for time
Seems most of the videos I've watched of people doing "Grace" they've basically been doing power cleans with a push press, so for comparison purposes between Crossfitters from different parts I'm assuming (which makes an ___ out of you and me...) that people are power cleaning.

I'm running a weekend-warrior type class on Sunday and I usually get some people showing up who have never done CrossFit before. My original plan was to teach the full squat clean and push jerk, but after watching a bunch of the videos I'm not so sure. Scaling the weight so that people are challenged but still able to get the mechanics and form right without running too much risk of hurting themselves will of course be key.

Teaching the power clean to newbies and making sure they don't bite off more weight than they can chew should be easier than squat cleans.

At the same time - personally, to me, I don't think people are doing as much work with a power clean as with a squat clean, and if the workout says "clean" - then that's always meant a squat clean to me. Am I wrong about that?
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2011, 10:08 PM   #2
Robert Fabsik
Member Robert Fabsik is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Kildeer  IL
Posts: 2,233
Re: "Grace" Squat Clean v. Power Clean

If they are pretty new I'd go with the powerclean and then over time introduce the squat clean especially if they are having limited time in the gym.

Squat cleans are a heck of a lot more work then powercleans and 99.9999% the time when it says clean it means squat clean.

But, somewhere around here, Grace has become more of a get if overhead anyhow workout, which I think was Coach's original intent. Some keep it pure with squat cleans but many have gone the power route. Just make sure you document which form you did if you ever need it for bragging rights or a competition.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2011, 04:24 AM   #3
Tamara Cohen
Member Tamara Cohen is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Asheville  NC
Posts: 4,392
Re: "Grace" Squat Clean v. Power Clean

Grace is ground to overhead anyhow.

When you clean, you can only catch the bar as high as you can pull it. If that is below parallel, then it is a clean. I don't see the point of making people ride down a fairly light weight for 30 reps for time. Because if you can't power clean 95/135, then you really shouldn't be doing Grace as Rx'd anyway. I'm sure someone will come along and argue that it's a different stimulus. Sure. Do what you want. But, if your goal is to teach the full clean or to help people improve their full clean, then doing 30 reps for time is NOT the way to do that.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2011, 05:31 AM   #4
Casey Raiford
Affiliate Casey Raiford is offline
 
Casey Raiford's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Ft Meade  MD
Posts: 1,364
Re: "Grace" Squat Clean v. Power Clean

According to the FAQ, Grace is:


Quote:
Crossfit said:
Clean and Jerk 135 lbs
The power clean/push press @ 135, or ground to overhead anyway you can are the most common approaches to that. Usually it's a push press from the receive point on the power clean. From a work capacity, or legitimacy point of view you can debate the merits of that approach to the actual full range of motion C&J all day, but the real bottom line is that they're two different things. The C&J is one thing and everything else is another.

We do both at my box, but when we program Grace it's 30 below parallel squat cleans that terminated fully erect followed by a push or split jerk.

I personally believe in teaching the full range oly lifts first, then shorter range variants. The former can lead to the latter, but if you learn a power clean first the squat clean is harder to get across. Ditto the snatch. At least that's been my experience, your mileage may vary.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2011, 08:09 AM   #5
Scott Allen Hanson
Member Scott Allen Hanson is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Idaho Falls  Idaho
Posts: 1,008
Re: "Grace" Squat Clean v. Power Clean

Coach Burgener: "a squat clean is a failed power clean".

If, by more "work", you mean squat cleans feel harder, I agree.

If, by more "work", you mean moving a load over distance (the physics definition), then no, squat cleans are the same amount of work. You are moving the load the exact same distance, floor to rack at standing.

If you believe in "increased work capacity" and that power output is king, then power cleans will result in a shorter, higher power output.

I agree with Tamara that there are better ways to learn and practice squat cleans.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2011, 08:29 AM   #6
Eric Montgomery
Member Eric Montgomery is offline
 
Eric Montgomery's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: San Diego  CA
Posts: 7,413
Re: "Grace" Squat Clean v. Power Clean

In an Oly competition, for the clean and jerk there's no requirement that you squat clean it. The clean is the act of getting the bar up to the rack position. So saying that clean and jerk implies squat clean (unless squat clean is specifically stated) is inaccurate. I think a power clean/power snatch makes a lot more sense if you're doing anything more than about 5 reps at a time--the whole point of the Oly lifts is to teach explosive hip/knee extension, so if you're doing 30 squat cleans with half your 1RM all you're doing is teaching your body how to execute a muted hip/knee extension so you don't throw the bar over your head when you pull under it. You could still have make them into fairly explosive movements if you power cleaned it though.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2011, 08:30 AM   #7
Casey Raiford
Affiliate Casey Raiford is offline
 
Casey Raiford's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Ft Meade  MD
Posts: 1,364
Re: "Grace" Squat Clean v. Power Clean

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Allen Hanson View Post
Coach Burgener: "a squat clean is a failed power clean".
A lot of people say that, it's a common truth in oly lifting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Allen Hanson View Post
If, by more "work", you mean squat cleans feel harder, I agree.
Viewed from a standpoint of range of motion and flexibility, it requires more of each and is therefor more challenging. This isn't even factoring in the speed, timing and things like myotatic response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Allen Hanson View Post
If, by more "work", you mean moving a load over distance (the physics definition), then no, squat cleans are the same amount of work. You are moving the load the exact same distance, floor to rack at standing.
That's not entirely accurate. The net distance is the same for each lifter depending solely on their height, but you can and often do cover more gross vertical distance in a squat clean. It all depends on how high you drive the bar in the second pull. The higher you get it, the farther down you go into a squat and back up to the front rack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Allen Hanson View Post
If you believe in "increased work capacity" and that power output is king, then power cleans will result in a shorter, higher power output.
I also said you can debate those all day long and that my bottom line was a different point entirely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Allen Hanson View Post
I agree with Tamara that there are better ways to learn and practice squat cleans.
Pretty sure I said that too.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2011, 09:25 AM   #8
Sean Andrews
Member Sean Andrews is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Lethbridge  AB Canada
Posts: 24
Re: "Grace" Squat Clean v. Power Clean

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Montgomery View Post
So saying that clean and jerk implies squat clean (unless squat clean is specifically stated) is inaccurate. I think a power clean/power snatch makes a lot more sense if you're doing anything more than about 5 reps at a time--the whole point of the Oly lifts is to teach explosive hip/knee extension, so if you're doing 30 squat cleans with half your 1RM all you're doing is teaching your body how to execute a muted hip/knee extension so you don't throw the bar over your head when you pull under it.
I completely agree with this statement. As a crossfit coach I never really agreed with doing "high rep oly lifts". Everyone knows as fatigue sets in your form wanes. In crossfit power/squat clean need to be specified, In oly lifting there is no confusion, a clean is a "squat clean", power cleans are not an option with the weights they are lifting.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2011, 09:29 AM   #9
Tamara Cohen
Member Tamara Cohen is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Asheville  NC
Posts: 4,392
Re: "Grace" Squat Clean v. Power Clean

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Andrews View Post
I completely agree with this statement. As a crossfit coach I never really agreed with doing "high rep oly lifts". Everyone knows as fatigue sets in your form wanes. In crossfit power/squat clean need to be specified, In oly lifting there is no confusion, a clean is a "squat clean", power cleans are not an option with the weights they are lifting.
Depends on the lifter. There are elite level lifters who power snatch and power clean. Some of it is dependent on flexibility.

Chioma Amaechi power snatches:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-zKaY29KrM (WFS)

She power snatched 100kg at the Arnold.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2011, 10:57 AM   #10
Lincoln Brigham
Member Lincoln Brigham is offline
 
Lincoln Brigham's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Kirkland  WA
Posts: 3,987
Re: "Grace" Squat Clean v. Power Clean

Quote:
Coach Burgener: "a squat clean is a failed power clean".
You have to put that in context. Mike is talking about an experienced lifter who knows how to lift. An experienced lifter has gotten to the point where they can put everything they've got into a lift without getting out of position and losing technique. Beginners aren't there yet. For someone who doesn't have solid squat clean technique, a failed power clean is a missed lift.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Critique: hang power clean & jerk, clean pulls, back squat Brandon Fisel Digital Coaching 3 08-02-2010 04:12 PM
Is "Clean" the same as "Clean and Jerk"? Casey Crookston Exercises 1 11-28-2009 12:35 PM
First Video - "Cleans" "Presses" Baby Grace William Davidson Digital Coaching 8 09-20-2009 01:01 PM
power clean and squat clean check Daniel Krull Digital Coaching 1 03-30-2009 05:12 AM
Linda--Squat Clean or Power Clean? Tommy Conroy Workout of the Day 9 03-03-2008 02:58 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
CrossFit is a registered trademark of CrossFit Inc.