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Old 12-09-2007, 05:08 PM   #71
Randy Tarasevich
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Re: Why MMA/KM?

Hock Hocheim and the Scientific Fighting Congress have some of the most real-world applicable stuff out right now.
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Old 12-09-2007, 06:00 PM   #72
Andrew Thompson
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Re: Why MMA/KM?

I went to a 4 day seminar by Hock Hocheim and the Scientific Fighting Congress a few years ago. He knows his stuff, and is a lot of fun to learn from.
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Old 12-09-2007, 06:35 PM   #73
David Bott
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Re: Why MMA/KM?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Lopez-Ota View Post
I think the part where a Krav Maga, BJJ, Muay Thai, or MMA practioner think his style is the best and shuns everything else.

You mean like a fan of any pro sports team?

And I can't remember who said knife/gun defenses don't work and can't be trained realistically. Well this argument is often made for martial arts in general. The thing is though is it's TRAINING of course you're not going to do everything in training like it was real.... if you could walk into a school and just start disarming people or defending against their "realistic" attacks from day one, why on earth would you need to be there in the first place? You are there in a training situation to LEARN to deal with real attacks LATER on.

Yes the attacks, to begin with, may be slow, stilted and unrealistic, but they are training tools which one develops to later deal with realistic things... if of course these training drills never become more realistc as the student progresses then that is a fault of the teacher, not the style, or martial arts in general.

Personally, in my school, when we can't think of anything to do, someone will grab a wooden knife (no we dont' train with live blades, but I hope that doesn't instantly debunk us as a worthy training facility) and we'll simply try to stab/cut our partner. No pre-arranged attack moves, it's at a real speed and we don't "just fall down" when it's our turn

Just like basic training is not war, a dojo is not a street fight... but so far both are the best methods of learning their latter counterparts.
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Old 12-09-2007, 09:59 PM   #74
Randy Tarasevich
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Re: Why MMA/KM?

I've never been a big believer in kinife/gun disarms. However, I have not had much experience training gun disarms, only knife so i can only speak from that perspective. I just don't see it being pulled off successfully in most real life encounters
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Old 12-10-2007, 03:23 AM   #75
Jason Lopez-Ota
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Re: Why MMA/KM?

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Originally Posted by David Bott View Post
You mean like a fan of any pro sports team?

And I can't remember who said knife/gun defenses don't work and can't be trained realistically. Well this argument is often made for martial arts in general. The thing is though is it's TRAINING of course you're not going to do everything in training like it was real.... if you could walk into a school and just start disarming people or defending against their "realistic" attacks from day one, why on earth would you need to be there in the first place? You are there in a training situation to LEARN to deal with real attacks LATER on.

Yes the attacks, to begin with, may be slow, stilted and unrealistic, but they are training tools which one develops to later deal with realistic things... if of course these training drills never become more realistc as the student progresses then that is a fault of the teacher, not the style, or martial arts in general.

Personally, in my school, when we can't think of anything to do, someone will grab a wooden knife (no we dont' train with live blades, but I hope that doesn't instantly debunk us as a worthy training facility) and we'll simply try to stab/cut our partner. No pre-arranged attack moves, it's at a real speed and we don't "just fall down" when it's our turn

Just like basic training is not war, a dojo is not a street fight... but so far both are the best methods of learning their latter counterparts.
Don't base everything you think you know about a martial art by what you've seen on a TV show.
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Old 12-10-2007, 04:14 AM   #76
Jay Hanewinkel
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Re: Why MMA/KM?

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Originally Posted by Randy Tarasevich View Post
I've never been a big believer in kinife/gun disarms. However, I have not had much experience training gun disarms, only knife so i can only speak from that perspective. I just don't see it being pulled off successfully in most real life encounters
That reminds me of a story told by one of my old jiu-jitsu instructors I had in my early years who taught out of a KM or Systema place (before jiu-jitsu or MMA was popular). They had classes going simultaneously and the jiu-jitsu teacher was teaching the RNC in his class and at some point the KM instructor said that it was easily escapable if you knew the right way to do it. He had the jiu-jitsu instructor put him in a RNC so he could escape. He proceeded to have to tap out a time or two and which point he ended it by saying, "well it works most of the time." The jiu-jitsu instructor said, "well, I know that the RNC works all the time, so I'll stick with that."

The point being is that, like you said, I've yet to see a weapon defense that works and I can count on it to work. If it was out there, I'd love to do a little bit of training in it, I just haven't seen it yet. All the ones I've seen in demonstrations have been extremely lack luster. Even the Army Combatives School has said they haven't found any good ones and they've looked for them. Another thing is that with MMA techniques you always have a back up, if I miss my take down I go straight to this or if I avoid a takedown I have X number of options, I have a counter for everything. Of course there will be things that are situation dependent. Like Becca said, MT kicking isn't good in high heels. Of course that doesn't mean a MT kick is therefore no good in all street situations. Just depends. The good thing about MMA training is that you have a wide variety of options that work all the time because you've trained them live.

The other thing about knife or gun defenses is that most of the time you're not going to see it until it's too late. If you're in a fight with someone and he pulls it, you're not going to see it coming. In real life the guy doesn't come at you from 100 feet away tossing the knife between his hands, like they told us at the Army Combatives School. He's not going to let you know he has it. The other thing they taught us, and proved with taser training, is that when you get taken down or take someone down and they have a weapon, it is much more difficult to pull out and use due to the need to defend. In all my sparring except for one instance, my grappling was so much better than everyone else's that I could control them enough to either get my taser or take their's away and use it on them, depending on who had it. It was actually a fun change in training. I highly recommend it.
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Old 12-10-2007, 06:40 AM   #77
Randy Tarasevich
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Re: Why MMA/KM?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Hanewinkel View Post
That reminds me of a story told by one of my old jiu-jitsu instructors I had in my early years who taught out of a KM or Systema place (before jiu-jitsu or MMA was popular). They had classes going simultaneously and the jiu-jitsu teacher was teaching the RNC in his class and at some point the KM instructor said that it was easily escapable if you knew the right way to do it. He had the jiu-jitsu instructor put him in a RNC so he could escape. He proceeded to have to tap out a time or two and which point he ended it by saying, "well it works most of the time." The jiu-jitsu instructor said, "well, I know that the RNC works all the time, so I'll stick with that."

The point being is that, like you said, I've yet to see a weapon defense that works and I can count on it to work. If it was out there, I'd love to do a little bit of training in it, I just haven't seen it yet. All the ones I've seen in demonstrations have been extremely lack luster. Even the Army Combatives School has said they haven't found any good ones and they've looked for them. Another thing is that with MMA techniques you always have a back up, if I miss my take down I go straight to this or if I avoid a takedown I have X number of options, I have a counter for everything. Of course there will be things that are situation dependent. Like Becca said, MT kicking isn't good in high heels. Of course that doesn't mean a MT kick is therefore no good in all street situations. Just depends. The good thing about MMA training is that you have a wide variety of options that work all the time because you've trained them live.

The other thing about knife or gun defenses is that most of the time you're not going to see it until it's too late. If you're in a fight with someone and he pulls it, you're not going to see it coming. In real life the guy doesn't come at you from 100 feet away tossing the knife between his hands, like they told us at the Army Combatives School. He's not going to let you know he has it. The other thing they taught us, and proved with taser training, is that when you get taken down or take someone down and they have a weapon, it is much more difficult to pull out and use due to the need to defend. In all my sparring except for one instance, my grappling was so much better than everyone else's that I could control them enough to either get my taser or take their's away and use it on them, depending on who had it. It was actually a fun change in training. I highly recommend it.
Its nice to know someone else shares my feelings about this.
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Old 12-10-2007, 12:26 PM   #78
Randall Scott
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Re: Why MMA/KM?

good posts jay

nice to see that some involved in this discussion actually train and know what they are talking about.

as far as effective style issues...if there are any questions it's as easy as looking at history...vale tudo...gym challenges...original ufc's......
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Old 12-11-2007, 02:40 AM   #79
David Bott
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Re: Why MMA/KM?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Lopez-Ota View Post
Don't base everything you think you know about a martial art by what you've seen on a TV show.
I'm sorry but I cannot see how that is even remotely related to my previous post.
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Old 12-11-2007, 08:05 AM   #80
Gant Grimes
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Re: Why MMA/KM?

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Originally Posted by Randall Scott View Post
as far as effective style issues...if there are any questions it's as easy as looking at history...vale tudo...gym challenges...original ufc's......
The original post was concerned with self-defense, not ring records. There is a difference.
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