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Old 06-15-2007, 08:32 PM   #61
Jason Lopez-Ota
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I live on Oahu. If I'm ever in Maui I'm going to check that place out.
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Old 06-22-2007, 03:51 PM   #62
Anton Emery
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Good thread. I train BJJ at Straight Blast Gym in Portland Oregon. As far as Krav Maga in Pride/UFC i can recall anyone specific beyond what previous posters have mentioned. And even if someone had trained in KM, would we be able to tell the difference? Since they cant bite/eye gouge/groin strike i assume their striking would like everyone else's. There are only so many ways to kick and punch.

As far as the effectiveness of KM, i can't say, having never done it. I guess i am echoing Matt Thorton, my BJJ teacher when i say this, but when i consider alot of these other arts i look to see if they train alive. I realize you can't go full force with throat strikes, eye gouges, groin shots, etc. But do you put on gloves and pads and go at it? Actually practice movement, timing, and striking against a resisting opponent(s)? That is what i would look for. Its that delivery system that makes sports like boxing, BJJ, Wrestling, Muay Thai, and Judo effective. I know my techniques work because i use them on a variety of full resisting opponents in class.

All that being said i hope i never have to fight someone on the street. I havn't had to since i was 15 and i cant remember it because of the adrenaline. If i do i hope he's alone, unarmed, and doesnt know how to grapple. Hehe.


anton
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Old 06-23-2007, 08:28 AM   #63
Don Almer
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Hey folks,

The thing I love about these forums is that, whether you agree with other posters or not, usually you are required to think. Which is always stimulating.

Been around the block and have had the great fortune to train in various styles of combat. As with most of the previous posters I tend to agree that ego gets in the way for a lot of fellas (generally not so much with the ladies) and dovetailing onto that is the staunch defense of the style/art they currently train in.

Striking arts are great... but can be limited. We used to absolutely destroy a world-class Taekwondo full-contact champ and a world-class Muy Thai champ by taking them out of their element... to the ground. That being said there's a reason that the striking game in MMA has ramped up a notch... because a TON of people are good on the ground now so you can hold a distinct advantage if you're good on your feet.

Grappling arts are great... but can be limited. A surprising amount of practioners of BJJ are actually surprised (almost dumbfounded) when they are introduced to a scenario or training wherein their opponents strike in various fashions. What's a favorite saying of strikers? "BJJ works for a lot of people until you start getting punched in the face." That being said, if you're good on the ground and the other person is uncomfortable it's almost always lights out.

Just like with our training I firmly believe that knowledge is power. Strive to learn a myriad of styles. Keep what is useful. Discard what is not. Get to the bare bones of what you are training for.

CrossFitters embrace Coach's training methodologies and philosophies for their definition of fitness. Should be no different with other training. If you strive to learn self-defense you'd best study some realistic stuff. If you want inner peace and harmony, there's outlets for that, too. Quantify what you are looking for and seek to attain it.

Now, with regards to vale tudo/street combat/omg time to rock n' roll or whatever you wanna call it, as long as one thing occurs mentally within you no matter the training level you can survive:

* the "combat mindset" of knowing that you will, at a moment's notice, be nondiscriminatory in your attacks and kill/hurt/cripple/etc with ruthless efficiency

To close out this ramble, here's something I preach to my fellow law enforcement officers when I train em and something I preach to folks that I combat train with:

Do not regard what you do only as 'preparation' for doing the same thing more fully or better at some later time.

Nothing is ever done twice.

There is no next time.

This is of special application to combat.

There is but one time to win a battle.

It must be won the first time.



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Old 06-27-2007, 07:24 AM   #64
Frank DiMeo
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Those who have had to fight outside the ring/cage/dojo for military, law enforcement, or street survival reasons, please post on this.
What worked for you?
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Old 06-27-2007, 10:22 AM   #65
John Seiler
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Good question, Frank. I think this might deserve it's own thread; especially as this is an older thread. If you don't get much response, please post it again as a new thread as I'd really like to see some response.

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Old 06-27-2007, 04:27 PM   #66
Larry Lindenman
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Wow, took a month off (work and developing a covert officer survival course) and look what happens!! You have to come at this from a multi-disiplinary approach. Awareness is the first level: it's hard to jump an aware person and most mopes are looking for easy targets. Second, we need to realize what we are getting into and how to verbilize (or escape) our way out of most situations. Is this a straight up bar fight ("What ya looking at?") or is this a mugging. In a bar fight, you may have to account for his friends and yours. If your being mugged, you WILL be outgunned, the mope doesn't want to get hurt and wants to get paid. It ain't sport to him, it's business. He either has a friend or a weapon or both. So does your MA teach you defense against multiple attackers (also are you aware enough to spot the 2nd or 3rd)? How about weapon defense? That take down is going to hurt like heck with a knife sticking out of your skull! Pre-fight awareness, reading body language, verbal defusion, positioning, not being a dick, and getting in the first shot, all comprise the Pre-contact phase of street combat. If you can't do this stuff, under stress, I don't care if your a BJJ, JKD, TKD, EIEIO, expert...you will be dominated. I have to say, hitting first is the greatest indicator of the winner. You probably should be able to articulate why you struck first, to prevent a stay in jail.

Ok, on to that first hit...who cares what art it's from, hit hard and try to knock the guy out...a little distraction (ala the classic sucker punch) never hurt...so could you sell the distraction, under stress. For that matter, could you control your reactions to a violent confrontation (hint: violent Force on Force training with verbalization should be trained often). Might as well squeeze this in: can you access your weapon (if you carry) or improvise a weapon (metal pen, swing your belt, keys, etc.) to even the playing field? If you think you could access your weapon, try it, full speed, with the stress in high gear, and someone trying to stomp you...or stop you from getting to it. I've seen a lot of people get hurt trying to access a weapon and getting fixated, with their hands down at the waist.

Ok, now were done with the pre-fight and you missed your oppurtunity to hit hard,fast, and first, (using distraction) and he takes the first shot. What's that shot going to be...probably a right cross or hook (Left cross or hook for the lefties). Don't take my word for it, search youtube or any other video website for "fights". Never seen a jab, kick, or uppercut, used. Never saw it real life either...because they are trying to knock you out with their first punch (or they are defalting to their strong arm, under stress). You need some sort of cover, which works with the flinch reaction, and will cover your head to prevent that knockout. There are tons of them, do some research...my art is Kali so I use a Kali friendly cover...doesn't matter. You need to survive that first hit and not get knocked to the ground...'cause, the second most common street fight technique is the "ground and stomp". Once the cover is up and you've absorbed the first shot, you need to return a hard, fast, dominant attack. I like elbows, forearms, palms, eye jabs (more of a horizontal flicking motion). Punching a dude in the head, although satifying, often leaves your hand BROKEN...kind of hard to hit again with a broken wing. Once you get the guy on the ground...it is not time to put on your MMA finishing move. Get the heck out of there. He's either going to be off and get his friends, or a weapon or both. LEAVE THE AREA. As far as my martial art is better than yours...who cares, does it work full contact, under realistic stress, can YOU make it work? That's all that matters. I can take a guy who is modertly fit. Train him to throw a decent right cross/hook/elbow and if I teach him/her deception and to hit first...they're going to be pretty effective. Should you learn to fight on the ground? yep. Stand up, yep. Learn it all...it's fun. Sport vs. street vs. historical arts arguements are off base. Make what you have work in the proper context, full contact, under stress.

By the way 30 years in martial arts and 20 years as a cop, now running a undercover drug unit in a major metro area. I have seen a lot of stuff, real time and the after effects, and have had my share of confrontations...this ain't theory.
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Old 06-28-2007, 06:16 AM   #67
Beau Bryant
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Larry said it well.
To me the most important things to take away from his post is this.....
"hitting first is the greatest indicator of the winner."
and yes, depending on the situation this may land you 90 days in the slammer. Happened to a good friend of mine, had a very legitimate threat, was the first to hit hard and fast and was sent to jail for 90 days because he won. Be prepared for that.

"Once the cover is up and you've absorbed the first shot, you need to return a hard, fast, dominant attack. I like elbows, forearms, palms, eye jabs (more of a horizontal flicking motion)."
If you are not practicing a violent, dominating, immediate counter attack you are lacking. To really practice this you need to get hit and hit hard with an immediate counter attack every once in a while to get over that initial shock of being hit. As soon as you get hit you need to bring the business and bring the business quickly and violently back at the attacker and do not stop. Think of a freight train going at the guy and do not stop, continuing to move over the opponent.

On multiple attackers. Doesn’t matter what your style, if you cross train in multiple disciplines or not, you are in trouble when confronted with multiple attackers. I would say your best bet is to out run them. If that is not an option all the principles Larry discussed still hold true with the addition of a lot of movement. Hit hard and fast first, try to eliminate one of the threats quickly (my father always told me to hit the biggest guy first) then see if you can run, if not stick and move (lots of movement) and always look for the opportunity to run. Whenever we trained multiple attackers the only chance we had of surviving that situation was to devastate one opponent right off the bat and then escape.
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Old 06-28-2007, 06:51 AM   #68
Larry Lindenman
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Thanks Beau, forgot one thing...Geoff Thompson teaches the fence. Basically, when you think your being set up (the "interview": "Hey bud, got a match?" or "Hey man, I think you dropped this!") Or when the verbal battle starts, you put your hands in front of you Palms out at eye level, arms bent. I like to stagger the fence, with my right hand back slightly. This looks like your saying "stop" what your doing is getting your hands up in a non-aggressive manner, ready to defend. You are putting up a fence, he has to cross to get to your vital areas. Thompson teaches never to let someone touch the fence twice...actually, they get two touches and you respond with an attack. He reasons, if they invade your space twice, they are going to attack. This position also masks your first strike, if it gets to that.
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Old 06-29-2007, 08:24 AM   #69
Frank DiMeo
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Great insights, Larry.
Thanks!
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Old 07-05-2007, 09:36 AM   #70
Anton Emery
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Nice posts Larry, Very informative.
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