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Old 03-05-2007, 10:06 PM   #20
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"What I'm saying is that the hip/back position in the clean vs. the low-bar squat is the same. Look at the back angle of the clean AS IT LEAVES THE FLOOR and compare that with the back angle in the low-bar squat, and you will find that the low-bar squat is more similar to the pull than the high-bar squat. Look at the video, don't just assume, because you're not pulling from the position you think you are. "

I understand that, and I'm not arguing it. I know where a lifter's back and hips are in the pull--as I've said a few times, I'm not arguing that a high bar squat position is at all similar to the pull of either the clean or snatch, nor am i arguing that the low bar squat is not superior to the high bar squat for improving PULLING strength. I know I look a little dumb, but I'm not quite that bad.

I'm not talking about the pull, I'm talking about the squat. What I'm saying is that I'm not sure it's better for improving the strength to rise from the bottom of a clean.

I would still ask - Why use the low bar squat to improve the pulling strength of the clean when you have available deadlifts and pulls? By placing the bar on the back, you're eliminating the need for some of the upper back and shoulder musculature to support the load as it would in a real pull, so you're reducing the number of benefits of the exercise as compared to a pull/deadlift.

And again, most lifters in my experience can pull and rack more than they can stand up with. That being the case, why the greater concern with improving the pulling strength over the squatting strength? And the question I asked above--why use a squat to improve pulling strength when you can use similar movements, also which can be performed with huge loads.

Also, the limits of the pull in a clean are greatly dependent on technique as well as strength, and I think it's more common for a clean to be missed on the pull due to technique mistakes than inadequate strength (e.g. bar drifting from the body and crashing into the rack, pulling the T-spine down)--the height to which the bar must be pulled is so minimal as is the distance the lifter must travel in the 3rd pull as compared to the snatch--even a lifter with a weak 2nd pull can rack a very heavy clean with an aggressive 3rd pull.

So - It's clear you believe I'm adamantly opposed to performing low bar back squats. I'm really not. I'm open to experimenting, but my experimentation would be 1) during a basic strength cycle, not anywhere near compettion; and 2) to try to improve the front squat strength, not that of the clean pull.

If pulling strength is the problem, not front squatting strength, I would be inclined to take out the back squats of our imaginary program all together and replace them with pulls and deads instead of simply switching to a low bar back squat.
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