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-   -   TUF 13 - Brock Lesnar and Junior Dos Santos (http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=64221)

Sean Dunston 01-12-2011 11:56 AM

TUF 13 - Brock Lesnar and Junior Dos Santos
 
Seriously?
Brock as a coach.
Oh, my...

I guess for the TV/entertainment value, this is good for the UFC... but seriously?

And they're going to train welterweights -- where SKILL is going to be a huge factor in their fights... as opposed to SIZE, which is just about all Brock has in his arsenal. Yeah, he's quick (for his size), but it has been his sheer size and brute strength that won him his fights.

:thumbs_do

Jason R O'Dell 01-12-2011 12:02 PM

Re: TUF 13 - Brock Lesnar and Junior Dos Santos
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Dunston (Post 890145)
Seriously?
Brock as a coach.
Oh, my...

I guess for the TV/entertainment value, this is good for the UFC... but seriously?

And they're going to train welterweights -- where SKILL is going to be a huge factor in their fights... as opposed to SIZE, which is just about all Brock has in his arsenal. Yeah, he's quick (for his size), but it has been his sheer size and brute strength that won him his fights.

:thumbs_do

100% positive he can show them a thing or two about wrestling.

Sean Dunston 01-12-2011 12:20 PM

Re: TUF 13 - Brock Lesnar and Junior Dos Santos
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason R O'Dell (Post 890149)
100% positive he can show them a thing or two about wrestling.

Perhaps... and as a wrestler (way back in the day) I am a fan of wrestling.

However, wrestling is a pretty small component of MMA -- useful things from wrestling that carry over to MMA are: takedowns, takedown defense, and maybe a little bit of ground control (but that can be quickly negated by a good BJJ artist).

Wrestling does not have submissions, or submission defense and there is also no striking in wrestling.

I dunno.

:shrug:

Jason R O'Dell 01-12-2011 12:25 PM

Re: TUF 13 - Brock Lesnar and Junior Dos Santos
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Dunston (Post 890166)
Perhaps... and as a wrestler (way back in the day) I am a fan of wrestling.

However, wrestling is a pretty small component of MMA -- useful things from wrestling that carry over to MMA are: takedowns, takedown defense, and maybe a little bit of ground control (but that can be quickly negated by a good BJJ artist).

Wrestling does not have submissions, or submission defense and there is also no striking in wrestling.

I dunno.

:shrug:

I agree. I was more pointing to the fact you were trying to say he only has size and power and insinuating he doesn't have skill. I was trying to say he does have skill in wrestling.

Doug Blankenship 01-13-2011 09:59 PM

Re: TUF 13 - Brock Lesnar and Junior Dos Santos
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Dunston (Post 890166)
Perhaps... and as a wrestler (way back in the day) I am a fan of wrestling.

However, wrestling is a pretty small component of MMA -- useful things from wrestling that carry over to MMA are: takedowns, takedown defense, and maybe a little bit of ground control (but that can be quickly negated by a good BJJ artist).

Wrestling does not have submissions, or submission defense and there is also no striking in wrestling.

I dunno.

:shrug:

It's all about ratings and Brock equals ratings. I also would say that wrestling is a major component of MMA, not a small one. Most dominant fighters come from a wrestling background. I've done bjj for years and the biggest pains in the arses is wrestlers.

Jeffrey Crawford 01-14-2011 06:41 AM

Re: TUF 13 - Brock Lesnar and Junior Dos Santos
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Dunston (Post 890166)
Perhaps... and as a wrestler (way back in the day) I am a fan of wrestling.

However, wrestling is a pretty small component of MMA -- :shrug:

I find that to be a pretty interesting comment, I mean if you look at all the current MMA Champs in the UFC

155- Frankie Edgar/Gray maynard- wreslters
170- GSP- Amazing Wrestling
185- Horrible Wrestler
205- Shogun- Decent wrestler
Heavyweight- Cain- Wrestler

Then if you look at who would give shogun and anderson fits, it would be a good wrestler, So I would say wrestling is a pretty big component of MMA, and in my opinion the best base for fighters starting out.
That being said, I never understand why they dont have fights in the same weight class as the coaches on TUF.

Matt Payne 01-14-2011 07:42 AM

Re: TUF 13 - Brock Lesnar and Junior Dos Santos
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Dunston (Post 890166)
Perhaps... and as a wrestler (way back in the day) I am a fan of wrestling.

However, wrestling is a pretty small component of MMA -- useful things from wrestling that carry over to MMA are: takedowns, takedown defense, and maybe a little bit of ground control (but that can be quickly negated by a good BJJ artist).

Wrestling does not have submissions, or submission defense and there is also no striking in wrestling.

I dunno.

:shrug:

Wrestling is a large part of MMA. In fact I would go so far as to say it may even be the best "base" to come in with. Controlling an opponent on the ground or being able to take an opponent to the ground is a big part of MMA and Wrestling. As far as Brock goes, sure this is for ratings.... And they will get them too. :D

Sean Dunston 01-14-2011 08:35 AM

Re: TUF 13 - Brock Lesnar and Junior Dos Santos
 
I stand by my comments, here and above. I am mostly criticizing Brock as a coach for an MMA team, not wrestling in general. I think Brock is pretty one-dimensional, and the other factor he has that can't be coached -- SIZE -- is on his side, but it won't be on the side of welterweights on his team.

I did not say that wrestling is a bad foundation for MMA - in fact, I think it is essential. Unless both fighters are going to stand and throw for the entire fight, they better know how to shoot some takedowns, and defend takedowns/sprawl. Sure - there are some fantastic throws in Judo, and some BJJ folks can jump and pull guard on their opponents but that is rare, and most fights get to the ground with a single or double leg. Ground control is a big element of wrestling too - but that's about as far as wrestling will take you in MMA (other than conditioning -- which I think we'll all agree is needed, but I can't say a wrestler's conditioning is superior to others' because I just am not as familiar with the way others do their conditioning).

I don't think there's a single wrestler out there who is comfortable on his back. I know my old wrestling coach forbade our entire team from sleeping on our backs because he didn't want us to ever be that close to being pinned. No joke. In fact, you see a lot of guys with strong wrestling backgrounds (and not much else) give up their backs pretty quickly when they're on the ground precisely because they do not want to be ON THEIR BACKS. Unless they can pull off an amazing escape, that is usually a terribly risky thing to do.

Donald Lee 01-14-2011 10:00 AM

Re: TUF 13 - Brock Lesnar and Junior Dos Santos
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Dunston (Post 891118)
and most fights get to the ground with a single or double leg.

Single leg takedowns are uncommon in MMA. The only time I can remember seeing one was when Randy Couture did it to James Toney.

Matt Payne 01-14-2011 12:04 PM

Re: TUF 13 - Brock Lesnar and Junior Dos Santos
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Dunston (Post 891118)
I stand by my comments, here and above. I am mostly criticizing Brock as a coach for an MMA team, not wrestling in general. I think Brock is pretty one-dimensional, and the other factor he has that can't be coached -- SIZE -- is on his side, but it won't be on the side of welterweights on his team.

I did not say that wrestling is a bad foundation for MMA - in fact, I think it is essential. Unless both fighters are going to stand and throw for the entire fight, they better know how to shoot some takedowns, and defend takedowns/sprawl. Sure - there are some fantastic throws in Judo, and some BJJ folks can jump and pull guard on their opponents but that is rare, and most fights get to the ground with a single or double leg. Ground control is a big element of wrestling too - but that's about as far as wrestling will take you in MMA (other than conditioning -- which I think we'll all agree is needed, but I can't say a wrestler's conditioning is superior to others' because I just am not as familiar with the way others do their conditioning).

I don't think there's a single wrestler out there who is comfortable on his back. I know my old wrestling coach forbade our entire team from sleeping on our backs because he didn't want us to ever be that close to being pinned. No joke. In fact, you see a lot of guys with strong wrestling backgrounds (and not much else) give up their backs pretty quickly when they're on the ground precisely because they do not want to be ON THEIR BACKS. Unless they can pull off an amazing escape, that is usually a terribly risky thing to do.

As far as wrestling taking you far in MMA. I still think as a solid base it will take you farther than an other element. You can teach a wrestler to strike but can you teach a striker to wrestle just as easily? I don't think you can...just my opinion. You look at GSP for an example.....he pounded BJ Penn , on the ground (where BJ is great), standing etc... and GSP uses ground control a lot in his game....

Celio Silva 01-15-2011 05:26 PM

Re: TUF 13 - Brock Lesnar and Junior Dos Santos
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Donald Lee (Post 891161)
Single leg takedowns are uncommon in MMA. The only time I can remember seeing one was when Randy Couture did it to James Toney.

Woa, wait a second, single legs TKDs are highly common in MMA. They come in all sizes and shapes and you can see them in any UFC card. The only thing rare about Randy's was that he applied an ankle-pick.

Wrestlings' best attribute is its nature: It's a griding combat sport, and it develops tremendous balance & endurance in its practitioners. Wrestlers have perhaps the best work-ethic in MMA. All of that goes a long way in MMA, but I think that wrestling is largely athleticism, and that's why you have GSP & Dominic Cruz, UFC WW & BW champions, outwrestle their challengers who come in to fight them with very impressive wrestling resumes that dwarfs the champions' experience in wrestling.

A good athlete will learn wrestling much faster than BJJ or boxing, that's why those two are, in my opinion, the best foundation for MMA. If I am advising a young aspiring MMA fighter (say 15 years old) I would tell him to wait 6 years to fight, and to train 80% BJJ 10% BOXING 10% WRESTLING for 3 years and then switch to 80% BOXING 10% BJJ 10% WRESTLING. In 6 years he would be ready to debut (21) in MMA with solid stand-up & ground game, so who cares if his opponent is a "better wrestler" and can hypotetically "dictate where the fight goes" if my fighter is better on the ground and standing-up? I still believe in exceling in one combat sports instead of being a jack of all trades master of none. To me one should learn how to fight either standing or on the ground, and the wrestling you develop as you go, in & out of the cage, just like GSP did.

Having said/ranted that, JDS by destruction in the 1st/2nd round... :evilsmile

Doug Blankenship 01-15-2011 10:02 PM

Re: TUF 13 - Brock Lesnar and Junior Dos Santos
 
Quote:

Having said/ranted that, JDS by destruction in the 1st/2nd round...
I cannot see this going any other way.

Paul A Booth 01-16-2011 04:44 PM

Re: TUF 13 - Brock Lesnar and Junior Dos Santos
 
Brock has more time than anyone in the UFC in front of the camera (I would imagine) - he is an entertainer and that's what TUF is. As far as what he has to offer as a coach - Wrestling is obvious, how to handle the spotlight could be another. It seems that many of the Great Fighters who have been on TUF were not necessarily the best coaches out there, but they bring in their team of experts as well. I will watch it - Hopefully his team does better than Koschek's did (which isn't saying much).

Becca Borawski 01-16-2011 08:23 PM

Re: TUF 13 - Brock Lesnar and Junior Dos Santos
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Dunston (Post 891118)
Sure - there are some fantastic throws in Judo, and some BJJ folks can jump and pull guard on their opponents but that is rare, and most fights get to the ground with a single or double leg. Ground control is a big element of wrestling too - but that's about as far as wrestling will take you in MMA

I disagree with you on that, and I think fighters like Couture, Henderson, Lindland, Faber, Pulver and Sonnen (to name a few!) are excellent examples of how wrestling consists of much more than ground control and single/double legs.

Wrestling is a fantastic background to have for MMA - the upper body control translates very well to dirty boxing and the thai clinch -- Couture, Faber and Pulver are all infamous for this. Particularly the Greco wrestlers I know have amazing upper body control as well as the stereotypical takedowns and ground control. Basically, if you let a wrestler get tight on you, standing or on the ground, they have an major control advantage.

I also believe that wrestling gets you mentally tough like few other sports do. An accomplished wrestler will have an amazing work ethic, a crazy tolerance for pain, and a desire to win above all else. I've spent a lot of time with professionals in all three disciplines - muay thai/kickboxing, BJJ, and wrestling - and world class wrestlers are the toughest, most relentless guys I've ever met.

Carl Amolat 01-17-2011 03:46 PM

Re: TUF 13 - Brock Lesnar and Junior Dos Santos
 
Quote:

I also believe that wrestling gets you mentally tough like few other sports do. An accomplished wrestler will have an amazing work ethic, a crazy tolerance for pain, and a desire to win above all else. I've spent a lot of time with professionals in all three disciplines - muay thai/kickboxing, BJJ, and wrestling - and world class wrestlers are the toughest, most relentless guys I've ever met.
I believe Eddie Bravo put very succinctly the contributions that wrestling and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu bring to MMA when interviewed for the Human Weapon series: "Wrestling takes you to the ground and the Jiu Jitsu prepares you for what to do when the fight ends up on the ground."

And I will agree wrestlers are among the toughest athletes I happen to know. In practically every military course I've been in over the years, some of the toughest guys were the wrestlers. And also they were the most versatile of athletes. They were pound for pound strong and very quick with great stamina as well.

Becca Borawski 01-19-2011 09:21 PM

Re: TUF 13 - Brock Lesnar and Junior Dos Santos
 
Great video from Flowrestling, interviewing Chael -- he talks about wrestling in MMA specifically at around 4:20, I think it is:

http://www.flowrestling.org/videos/c...o-if-they-know

(work/family safe)

Troy Becker 01-20-2011 08:15 PM

Re: TUF 13 - Brock Lesnar and Junior Dos Santos
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Becca Borawski (Post 892032)
I disagree with you on that, and I think fighters like Couture, Henderson, Lindland, Faber, Pulver and Sonnen (to name a few!) are excellent examples of how wrestling consists of much more than ground control and single/double legs.

Wrestling is a fantastic background to have for MMA - the upper body control translates very well to dirty boxing and the thai clinch -- Couture, Faber and Pulver are all infamous for this. Particularly the Greco wrestlers I know have amazing upper body control as well as the stereotypical takedowns and ground control. Basically, if you let a wrestler get tight on you, standing or on the ground, they have an major control advantage.

I also believe that wrestling gets you mentally tough like few other sports do. An accomplished wrestler will have an amazing work ethic, a crazy tolerance for pain, and a desire to win above all else. I've spent a lot of time with professionals in all three disciplines - muay thai/kickboxing, BJJ, and wrestling - and world class wrestlers are the toughest, most relentless guys I've ever met.

What she said.

BJJ negates a good wrestler? I don't know, anyone with a wrestling background can train BJJ for a relatively short amount of time and have great, GREAT control and dominate their opponent. Especially on top- but on the bottom, the squirm out and wind up on top or standing again. I have seen wrestlers "walk" all over BJJ purists more times than I can count.


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