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-   -   "MMA Strength-Endurance Training - Be Stronger...Longer" (https://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=36120)

Rafael Garcia 08-22-2008 05:15 AM

"MMA Strength-Endurance Training - Be Stronger...Longer"
 
Here i post an article written in mmaweekly. Its about how to obtain pure strength + endurance. The article says that is very good train for 1RM because you are always improving your strength, but for real sports, like mma, is more important being strong during longer periods of time than only during some seconds like the 1RM kind of training.

The method is very clear if you read the article. He advises doing it as a complement to your normal SS training. The resume is:

Strength-Endurance = Heavy Weights + Short Rest + Volume (high series)

[url]http://www.workingclassfitness.com/MMAstrength.shtml[/url]

At the end of the article, the writer says: "in other words, I was performing 30 reps with roughly 85% of 1RM in just under five minutes. Do a workout like this with 3-4 exercises, and look how much heavy lifting you’re doing over an extended period of time."

It looks a bit similar to what we train in CF, but without the metcon characteristic. I mean, trying to practice in less time each time, the more reps possible at the max weight possible too.

Is my analysis right? Or the goals of this 'system', method or whatever you want to name it, are totally different to CF goals.

Sorry if i repeat, but is a pity that in CF (is the only lack of i am noticing) we don't have a path where we can track our improvements, like, for example, applying this method. In CF we are always using the same weights, so the only data we can improve is the TIME, in stead of the WEIGHT.

What happen if an athlete is able to do FRAN in a super record time? shouldnt we start to think about entering a new level of CF training for this athlete and scale up the wod (weight or reps depending of the exercise) to continue improving? If not, the athlete will enter a phase where he will get stacked improving only some seconds each time. There is something here that i still don't understand. Perhaps is my mentality that is used to systems where you can track data.

I am continuing practicing CF and i will continue in the future, because is giving me the best results adapted to my way of life (normal worker), but my brain is starting to be full of information and lot of goals i think are impossible to achieve to improve:

Max Effort training (ME)
Dynamic Effort training (DE)
Endurance-Strength training
plyometric training
complexes and block periodization
metabolic conditioning training (High Intensity Interval Training HIIT)
.....

is endless ... :-)

i didn't know before that conditioning was going to be a new world like this :-)

Stephen Flamm 08-22-2008 08:23 AM

Re: "MMA Strength-Endurance Training - Be Stronger...Longer"
 
Many CFers do, in fact, scale up. Even on something like today's WOD, "Angie," I already noticed one person in the comments section write that he used a 25 lb weight vest.

Rafael Garcia 08-23-2008 04:03 AM

Re: "MMA Strength-Endurance Training - Be Stronger...Longer"
 
[QUOTE=Stephen Flamm;382247]Many CFers do, in fact, scale up. Even on something like today's WOD, "Angie," I already noticed one person in the comments section write that he used a 25 lb weight vest.[/QUOTE]

yes, but sometimes it disconcerts me. I mean, CrossFit is a open community and the main web page, and the effort behind it, is being given for free, from persons and profesionals that are working for free too, so my comments are absolutely coming from a respecful perspective. but there are things that, or you read like hell here in the forums, or you are not going to learn never. For example:

- If you are novice, you have to scale down reps or weights. It was recently that they added the BrandX forum where you can read wods for "puppies".

- I have never read "officialy" about the posibility of scaling up. What happen if you are able to do a Fran in less than 3:00 min? do you have to think about the posibility of scaling up? Or is logical to do a Fran, with the official reps and weights that appear in the web page, with the same weights for two persons, one that is 5'6f and 160lb and another partner that is 6'5f and 220lb? i think its a bit unffair. And there is no information about it.

Rob Exline 08-23-2008 05:16 AM

Re: "MMA Strength-Endurance Training - Be Stronger...Longer"
 
In looking at your original post, there are absolutely ways to track your progress. All the info is there, you track your progress by seeing your times lower in the benchmark workouts such as fran, angie etc. Crossfit is all about increasing your power out put accross the three metabolic pathways (phosphagen(power), glycolic(strength endurance) and oxidative(aerobic/endurance)).

While it is true the benchmarks have a set rx. But that does not mean that they have to be absolute. For example, take Fran the times for the elite athletes in this method are approaching sub 2:00. At some point there will be a total bottoming out of that time. Those folks will have to scale up, remember this is what constantly vaired funcional movements at high intensity are all about.

It is up to the individual to track your progress by recording your numbers in all the WODS. There are max efforts days, med effort days, etc.

As I look at this modality, there seems to be infinite ways to apply it. The hopper method of workouts "randomization" provides for this.

David Wood 08-23-2008 06:37 AM

Re: "MMA Strength-Endurance Training - Be Stronger...Longer"
 
[quote=Rafael Garcia;382977]yes, but sometimes it disconcerts me. I mean, CrossFit is a open community and the main web page, and the effort behind it, is being given for free, from persons and profesionals that are working for free too, so my comments are absolutely coming from a respecful perspective. but there are things that, or you read like hell here in the forums, or you are not going to learn never. For example:

- If you are novice, you have to scale down reps or weights. It was recently that they added the BrandX forum where you can read wods for "puppies".

- I have never read "officialy" about the posibility of scaling up. What happen if you are able to do a Fran in less than 3:00 min? do you have to think about the posibility of scaling up? Or is logical to do a Fran, with the official reps and weights that appear in the web page, with the same weights for two persons, one that is 5'6f and 160lb and another partner that is 6'5f and 220lb? i think its a bit unffair. And there is no information about it.[/quote]


Rafael, one thing that CrossFit is NOT is a hand-holding, tell-you-exactly-what-to-do, take-away-your-responsibility program. You, and only you, are responsible for your life, and your training.

Furthermore, although I appreciate the respect you show and your acknowledgement that this is all provided without charge, part of what that means is that yes, you have to do your own research. Yes, you have to read a lot, and think about what you read to decide if it applies to you. You may (or, more likely, will) have to do some experimentation with your own body to find what is best for you.

The issue of how fast is "fast enough" in a Fran (i.e., under what conditions should you add weight) has been discussed multiple times here . . . a recent thread about the "intent" of Fran shows off the diversity of thinking. (This subject generates *lots* of very different opinions, by the way :).) There are some who believe that occasionally doing a "Fat Fran" (heavier weights) is a good idea (even if it slows you down). There are others who argue that the best application of that workout is "fast and furious", so you should scale down the weight until you can complete that first round of 21 reps in the same oh-so-quick time as the top performers (90 seconds or less). So, yeah, you gotta research, and, ultimately, decide for yourself. There are no "CrossFit Police" (or Guardia Civil) who will come to your gym and tell you to stop doing it the way you want to.

And, for what it's worth, Fran has the absolutely lovely property that it has one component that favors the "big guys" (thrusters at a specified weight of 95 pounds), and one component that favors smaller, lighter people (pullups). So your question about "is it fair" for people of different sizes tend to not matter much, in the long run.


The idea that you needed to be told "officially" about scaling up (or down) before you could do it is, well, amazing.

Oh, and, the BrandX forum with scaled workouts is not "recent". (What on earth made you think that?). It has been in existence for at least 3 or 4 years, and linked from the front page for at least 2 years.

Rafael Garcia 08-23-2008 09:26 AM

Re: "MMA Strength-Endurance Training - Be Stronger...Longer"
 
[QUOTE]Furthermore, although I appreciate the respect you show and your acknowledgement that this is all provided without charge, part of what that means is that yes, you have to do your own research. Yes, you have to read a lot, and think about what you read to decide if it applies to you. You may (or, more likely, will) have to do some experimentation with your own body to find what is best for you.[/QUOTE]

of course, i respect and i will continue respecting. I think that CF is one of the best things since cocacola was invented :-).

[QUOTE]The issue of how fast is "fast enough" in a Fran (i.e., under what conditions should you add weight) has been discussed multiple times here . . . a recent thread about the "intent" of Fran shows off the diversity of thinking. (This subject generates *lots* of very different opinions, by the way :).) There are some who believe that occasionally doing a "Fat Fran" (heavier weights) is a good idea (even if it slows you down). There are others who argue that the best application of that workout is "fast and furious", so you should scale down the weight until you can complete that first round of 21 reps in the same oh-so-quick time as the top performers (90 seconds or less). So, yeah, you gotta research, and, ultimately, decide for yourself. There are no "CrossFit Police" (or Guardia Civil) who will come to your gym and tell you to stop doing it the way you want to.[/QUOTE]

Is not about deciding by myself. I am asking this questions because if someone (CrossFit founders) "have invented" a system like this, where you are able to train three kind of training (phosphagen(power), glycolic(strength endurance) and oxidative(aerobic/endurance)), mix of all them with metcons, tabatas, giving importance to gymnastics elements, etc. and at the end, this system is working, its because i am sure they have answers to this questions. I dont want opinions from people like me in a forum, that are not experts and dont have a background preparation like you.

I mean, i am only asking to really experts what would happen if you scale up in, for example, "Fran", if you are in an amazing level where you have reach a top level. Are the goals of CF the same goals of an 100 meters athlete? i mean, that you have to work, and is a must, improving TIMES using the same variables (in a 100m athlete, the static variable are the meters; in CF, are the reps and weights in "Fran" in this example).

That is the only doubt i have. There are no doubtings about CF. Dont feel i am attacking the system, the community or something else. Is the opposite. Just want to clear my thoughts. When i do something, i try to understand it until the end. I am not use to practice a "system" as a black box. Just it.

[QUOTE]And, for what it's worth, Fran has the absolutely lovely property that it has one component that favors the "big guys" (thrusters at a specified weight of 95 pounds), and one component that favors smaller, lighter people (pullups). So your question about "is it fair" for people of different sizes tend to not matter much, in the long run.[/QUOTE]

But this kind of information, for example, that "Fran" is designed for both kind of bodies, is not writen anywhere. As you can see, i have need to ask quetions and wait for the answers. For example, why "Fran" was designed using 95lb for thrusters? Are you working a different goal if you use less weight or more weight from which was designed initially? I dont need an explanation. Just giving an example that there are no answers for people like me that likes to know what are they doing 100%.


[QUOTE]The idea that you needed to be told "officially" about scaling up (or down) before you could do it is, well, amazing. [/QUOTE]

Is not amazing at all. You are giving a wod each day "officially". I mean, a wod that is designed by experts. If experts recommend to scale down for begginers or use another weights/reps/time for girls or grandfathers, is not amazing about asking for officially advices to scale up.

Gavin Harrison 08-23-2008 10:07 AM

Re: "MMA Strength-Endurance Training - Be Stronger...Longer"
 
To me, it seems like scaling depends on your needs, as are all the things you mentioned in your original post. The good thing about crossfit is that it mixes all of those elements, and some more, in good ways. It's been discussed before (try searching), but it seems to me if you can do Fran in blazing fast time and you don't think it's possible for you to improve your time at a given weight, you should probably scale up, to increase your power output. Then, when you can't improve your time anymore with the heavier weights... scale up more! Check your official times every so often if you want, but to me, if you're times are blazing fast, and you can't improve them by going faster.. add more weight.. you'll get stronger in all regards for it. This sounds a lot like what some people think for scaling down.. hmm...


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