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-   -   Don't believe in Paleo because... (https://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=40807)

Ben Chapman 12-28-2008 01:36 PM

Don't believe in Paleo because...
 
Ok, I will preface this thread with the statement that we need to be careful. I'm going to broach a topic that could easily descend into personal attacks and some heated, possibly unfriendly debate. I also caution people to not steer it towards religion, it is not the point of bringing this up.

First of all I will state that I think there are some real merits to the paleo diet, people see results with it and I am hugely in favor of consuming foods at their most natural level. Having said that, I am not a paleo believer free and clear. Why? Because one of the prefaces for the paleo diet comes from the concept of millions of years of human evolution. I don't believe in evolution in the sense that most others do; at least not in the sense of descent with modification; or speciation. I was a biology major in college and whenever I requested some evidence from the fossil record or otherwise to show true descent with modification, I came up not only completely dry, but devoid of anyone having examples that THEY had heard of (these are PhDs in zoology, ecology and microbiology). That being said, I have nothing against someone who believes it. I believe that its a THEORY (still a theory, yes) that has support in its favor, but also has some glaring holes and some often swept under and ignored support that is NOT in its favor.

This is all to say, or inquire to any other paleo non-believers out there. I believe that people see results from the diet and that it can work, but mostly because of other reasons: i.e. the hail back to very natural foods of wide variety. For the reasons above though, I do believe that some of the paleo no-nos are still open season for me: certain grains, like rices, oats and some very specific types of corn, I believe that human history is short enough and also intelligent enough that these foods played a role all the way through and are not something to simply be discarded.

Feel free to discuss, you can see how this might descend into a religious topic, which admittedly is where my overall starting point comes from. However, I think that I can talk on a logical and scientific level about it as well.

Agree? disagree?

Robert Callahan 12-28-2008 01:44 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
 
[QUOTE=Ben Chapman;480468]I believe that its a THEORY (still a theory, yes) that has support in its favor, but also has some glaring holes and some often swept under and ignored support that is NOT in its favor.[/QUOTE]

Examples would be useful here :)

Joey Powell 12-28-2008 02:19 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
 
I actually lost a client because of this. The concept behind it was to much to swallow in relation to his religious beliefs. I did not even try to change his mind. Wasn't going there.

Amber Mathwig 12-28-2008 02:28 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
 
Ben - you didn't really pose a question here. But, I think you and I are on the same side of the evolution thing, so here is why I DO believe in paleo.

When asked to explain what I do eat or how I cook, I simply say that if my great grandparents couldn't have made it, I don't either. Yes, they had flours and the like, but if you think about it - my farming family depended on meats (the by products) and veggies most of the time, the food created by them out of the barn and garden. The crops were not always dependable sources of food.

Although Taubes book, Good Fats, Bad Fats is quite possibly one of the most difficult reads I have picked up in awhile, the first couple of chapters where he explains the fallacies of the American diet makes a ton of sense to me. I recommend it. Short version is that the researchers who first started the whole high-carb/low fat thing manipulated their studies and/or made the wrong correlations because of "this happened first, therefore this MUST be the result (there is some fancy latin term for this, I can't remember it now, someone help me).

Paleo is not really a theory to me, just a way of eating. A way that makes me feel good. It's skipping the aisles of pre-fabricated foods, and filling up with more natural, more delicious options.

I would liken your eating habits to perhaps a lacto-ovo vegetarian (a mostly vegetarian who still ingests eggs and milk products). You are likely following most of the "rules" of paleo - lots of meat, vegetables and fruits, healthy fats; yet adding your own stuff in as you like and can tolerate.

Wild rice is awesome and there will always be a small suppy of it in my kitchen. As well as whole milk and the occassional cheeses.

Matthew Stafford 12-28-2008 02:36 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
 
[QUOTE=Ben Chapman;480468]I believe that its a [B]THEORY[/B] (still a theory, yes) that has support in its favor, but also has some glaring holes and some often swept under and ignored support that is NOT in its favor.
[/QUOTE]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Ben Chapman 12-28-2008 02:40 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
 
Nice Princess Bride reference.

Scott Clark 12-28-2008 02:41 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
 
Joey, that sucks that you lost a client over it and I can see how religious people would take issue with Paleo if it's presented in a certain way. In what manner did you explain it?

Moreover, what scientific evidence exists that proves that Paleo man was supposedly free from disease on the scale that the more boisterous proponents claim? I see it as a turn off when presented in that sort of fashion. It would make more sense to espouse the benefits of natural foods based on their nutritional density and not niche theories about how cavemen were the model of perfect health, which is the popular presentation of Paleo.

Ben Chapman 12-28-2008 02:49 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
 
[QUOTE=Robert Callahan;480473]Examples would be useful here :)[/QUOTE]

Like I already said, the quite absent fossil record that is so greatly hailed as evidence, but speciation should show literally millions of intermediary specimens at significant populations numbers, for the modification to happen, it would happen one modification at a time, obviously modifications like that haven't even been observable in current history, hence the incredibly long timeline that evolution requires. The iterations demonstrating the descent with modification would need to be astronomical in type, but also in volume, large populations of intermediaries would need to be produced to eventually get the genetic diversity to cause the modifications. So far, no one can point to any of these, and believe me, I've looked.

The other contrary evidence I would offer is the concept of irreducable complexity, addressed initially by Michael Behe. Behe was a biochemist doing research on flaggelar motors. The whole concept of irreducable complexity poses the impossibility of a complex structure arising out of the coming together of individual parts. Meaning it even one item is missing, the product is useless. Look it up for a more detailed explaination. So far the only refutation I've seen for it is a bunch of what ifs, no real research or unbiased commentary. Behe came to his conclusions during the course of his research, being neutral and an evolutionist to begin with. So there are a few examples.

Tate Rivera 12-28-2008 02:56 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
 
This is something that I have been thinking about as well, as I too do not believe in evolution. But after much reading from this site and many others I have found myself eating paleo foods. To me it just makes sense to eat the foods that have been around for hundreds or thousands of years rather than the crap that has just been 'invented' this last century. I am interested to hear other's thoughts on this topic as well.

Lela Kaunitz 12-28-2008 03:04 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
 
[QUOTE=Amber Mathwig;480499]... because of "this happened first, therefore this MUST be the result (there is some fancy latin term for this, I can't remember it now, someone help me).[/QUOTE]

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc"]Post hoc ergo propter hoc[/URL] [wfs] -- "after this, therefore because of this".


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