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-   -   T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit (http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=38880)

Jason Scheffler 11-06-2008 03:49 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq (Post 439279)
CF keeps getting associated with rahbdo of it's own doing, if they don't want to be linked with it, get rid of Uncle Rahbdo

Then I bet we'll hear: "Why are they hiding that it's possible to get rhabdo?"

Allison Bishop 11-06-2008 06:36 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chad Waterbury (Post 439380)
I just want to take a second to jump on this thread and say that I'm impressed by the discussions that occur on the CF boards. Even when you don't agree with what a person or article states, you still manage to respect the opinions of others without resorting to personal attacks.

That's a great example to set. I wish other fitness forums would take note.

I never thought I'd see the day Chad Waterbury posted on CrossFit.com.

Jimmy Smith 11-06-2008 06:59 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chad Waterbury (Post 439380)
I just want to take a second to jump on this thread and say that I'm impressed by the discussions that occur on the CF boards. Even when you don't agree with what a person or article states, you still manage to respect the opinions of others without resorting to personal attacks.

That's a great example to set. I wish other fitness forums would take note.


Chad--
Thanks for posting...I've read these boards for a long time and never actually posted...That is the one thing that seperates this community from others..there is a lot of respect.

On a more personal note: Muscle Revolution changed the way I train---good stuff...thanks for writing that. This will probably open up a can of worms---but how could one incorporate the "Waterbury Method" with Crossfit??? I am one of those who loves crossfit and the feeling of euphoria and accomplishment after I finish a WOD---but I also love to lift and follow your method. I understand this may be awkward for you, but I would love to hear what you have to say.

Joe Cavazos 11-06-2008 07:30 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Scheffler (Post 439621)
Then I bet we'll hear: "Why are they hiding that it's possible to get rhabdo?"

I don't think that at all. It's entirely possible for CF to promote rhabdo awareness while treating it in a serious manner.

I imagine people would have a similar reaction to a video-game company whose mascot was a kid going into epileptic seizures.

Casey Raiford 11-06-2008 07:45 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
I can honestly say that in over 20 years over working out, lifting, endurance running, swimming, martial arts and so on...I had never even heard of rhabdo until Crossfit. The affiliate I go to treats the matter very seriously, and in my opinion quite responsibly. It's a safety issue that every newcomer gets briefed on, and there's an info link on the website. It's not glamorized by any stretch. That's possibly because it's a military affiliate and one thing we do well is safety, but I suspect the same is true at most if not all affiliates.

I think Pukey is a decent enough way to have a constant reminder to train responsibly. CF seems to get spotlighted for rhabdo because as far as I can tell, CF is the only organization the promotes any awareness of it at all. There are passing references in some of the LSD running mags I used to get (e.g. Trailrunner, Ultrarunner, etc) but it was always lumped into a list of other possible maladies with a box chart listing symptoms and remides. After that it was never mentioned again until a slow month rolled around.

Jeff S Johnson 11-06-2008 08:25 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Allison Bishop (Post 439686)
I never thought I'd see the day Chad Waterbury posted on CrossFit.com.

Ditto!

Bart Hodlik 11-06-2008 09:30 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Jones (Post 439341)
I love those pictures :D

Didn't say they were bad. Just an example of how the sites and fitness goals are expressed differently. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon Oto (Post 439359)
Okay. Let's not use it to make a point then.

Don't agree with this statement. Just because someone can't immediately recall the exact articles where they got their information, doesn't mean the statement is invalid. I'm sure that with the assistance of the power of google, the information could be quickly retrieved.

Robert Wolf 11-06-2008 09:45 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon Oto (Post 439359)
Okay. Let's not use it to make a point then.

Brandon-
This has been 3rd party validated in several different communities. The rate is also lower than that of the commonly run marathons. Is there a formalized research paper on the topic? Not yet...but this provides you an opportunity to provide something of VALUE. Start crunching the numbers big-man.

Christian Gotcher 11-06-2008 09:52 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Actually, I'd say we have the right to use that to make a point. Let's source it. In Crossfit Radio 3.5. Robb Wolf quotes statistics on the occurence of rhabdo in this country pointing to exercise as being a lesser factor and marathon running contributing to a ridiculous portion of these cases.

Most cases of rhabdo (the ones presented by Mike Boyle), are induced by Boot Camp training according to Glassman and Wolff. Although I haven't read the sourcework on this, a corpsman I spoke to said he had never seen rhabdo before assisting, where it happens on a surprisingly regular basis, and there are 'potty posters' in many training commands with color-correlation charts comparing urine and hydration needs. The brown square signifies "get to the hospital," indicating there's an understanding of the prevalence of rhabdo in those conditions.

Also, Andy indicated in CFR 3.5 that, going over years of statistics from the inclusion of CF in the BUD/S program, there were no instances of rhabdomyolosis connected with CF.

The information may be skewed, obviously- there are many more marathoners and boot-camp privates/SR's than there are CF'ers. Still, the claim that CF is more likely than other forms of training to cause exertional rhabdomyolysis seems based more on the emphasis the community puts on safety than actual fact.

(Robb posted while I was in the middle of writing, so this will sound kind of redundant. Apologies. Small world)

Joe Cavazos 11-06-2008 11:37 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Casey Raiford (Post 439733)
CF seems to get spotlighted for rhabdo because as far as I can tell, CF is the only organization the promotes any awareness of it at all.

This is true. But it's also entirely irrelevant. It is undeniably poor form to have a mascot that makes light of something like rhabdo. And yes, the mascot is making light of it. The rest of the CrossFit publications/media/whatever don't make light of it and take it very seriously, and for good reason. But this mascot only gives ammo to the people who complain about the intensity of our workouts.

This is not a problem with CrossFit's mission. Every CrossFitter who knows about rhabdo also knows that it is a very serious problem. This is a problem with CrossFit's PR. The harm done by the continued use of this mascot far outweighs the good, and at this point I think the only thing keeping it around is stubbornness.

Jamie J. Skibicki 11-06-2008 02:19 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Maybe turn uncle Rhabdo into the mister yuck of crossfit. Mister yuck was a mascot, but of what not to do. Or the noid from Dominos. Have Pukie foiling Rhabdo at every turn.

Chris Walls 11-06-2008 02:20 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
"Avoid the Rhabdo... he ruins kidneys"

Aaron C Bennett 11-06-2008 05:17 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
I will also have to echo the importance of CrossFit in promoting exercises that most people know very little about. I have been an athlete all of my life, even getting to make my attempt at the Nagano Olympics and playing top level rugby. Despite this, I never did Olympic style lifts except for squats. All of my trainers and coaches were worried about the danger of such lifts. I know now that they just didn't know the correct technique and how to teach it. Considering that, I guess it was good that they didn't have me lift, but I did miss out. Now, thanks to these boards and Starting Strength, I am doing Olympic lifts and getting bigger and stronger. I'm also having fun re-learning rings, which I haven't played with since I was in elementary school on the playground. I am reading more on fitness and nutrition than ever before.

David Meverden 11-06-2008 09:02 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Good article. A very reasonable treatment. But, I too, feel he failed to emphasis an important angle of our program.

What I see as the most revolutionary aspect of this program is the incredible motivation the program creates by treating fitness as sport. With every workout a competition against ourselves and others (either online through this amazing community or in person) we push ourselves to achieve things we never though possible. In fact, right now I'm convinced that I'll never become as fit with any other program simply because I can't imagine any other program motivating me to push myself this hard.

Steve Rakow 11-07-2008 07:30 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
I thought the article was good, but it still failed to capture what CrossFit is all about. Glad the author visited a couple of affiliates, but perhaps he should try to get to a L1 cert to get the full flavor of the basic certification program, which lays out the fundamentals of the CrossFit program.

As for T-nation, it's for a sport specific program - bodybuilding. CrossFit isn't about bodybuilding. CrossFit is all about improving fitness across the board without limiting the training stimulus to specific areas. Those who experience CF long enough (some on the first workout), "get it."

CF can be done by everyone, but it isn't for everyone. Some just don't want to work hard enough to get benefit of intense WODs. Some don't want to train outside their sport-specific areas. I think the article misses that point.

As for disparaging Coach, that is unfair. Coach is one of the more gracious people I've ever met. If you disagree with him, though, back up your position with facts and not attacks. If your way turns out to produce a more well rounded athlete, then CF will probably adopt that method. As of yet, no program out there can produce the type of general physical preparedness that CF does. And to be fair, a few years back, T-Nation really tried to hammer CF and Coach. I don't blame Coach if he holds a grudge against T-Nation and those who turned their back on CF and Coach. Duplicitous to say the least.

James Withington 11-07-2008 07:38 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Rakow (Post 440725)
I thought the article was good, but it still failed to capture what CrossFit is all about. Glad the author visited a couple of affiliates, but perhaps he should try to get to a L1 cert to get the full flavor of the basic certification program, which lays out the fundamentals of the CrossFit program.

As for T-nation, it's for a sport specific program - bodybuilding. CrossFit isn't about bodybuilding. CrossFit is all about improving fitness across the board without limiting the training stimulus to specific areas. Those who experience CF long enough (some on the first workout), "get it."

CF can be done by everyone, but it isn't for everyone. Some just don't want to work hard enough to get benefit of intense WODs. Some don't want to train outside their sport-specific areas. I think the article misses that point.

As for disparaging Coach, that is unfair. Coach is one of the more gracious people I've ever met. If you disagree with him, though, back up your position with facts and not attacks. If your way turns out to produce a more well rounded athlete, then CF will probably adopt that method. As of yet, no program out there can produce the type of general physical preparedness that CF does. And to be fair, a few years back, T-Nation really tried to hammer CF and Coach. I don't blame Coach if he holds a grudge against T-Nation and those who turned their back on CF and Coach. Duplicitous to say the least.

In fairness to the author, he posted on the discussion boards that he has subsequently had a good conversation with Glassman about Crossfit and the article.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Shugart
Quick Note: I just had a great two-hour conversation with Greg Glassman. Wish it could have happened while I was preparing the article, as it would have added much to it, but good to talk to him personally regardless.

I was hoping to post much of our convo here, but we covered so many subjects that it would be impossible to pass along everything. Maybe I'll post a few topics later, as I did pick up a lot of interesting things. Or maybe Greg and I could do something in the future for the public: audio interview about what fitness really is, the CrossFit definition of it, etc. Just thinking out loud here.

For now, just wanted to let everyone know that we did talk, a little late for the article, but a good talk nonetheless.

I wish he could have chatted with Glassman before posting the article, but never mind.

Jamie J. Skibicki 11-07-2008 09:02 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
I haven't seen any authors who've written about CF post here, so kudos to Chris. I really enjoy T-Nation, hell they just had an article on a twenty rep squat program and the author suggested switching the situps with turkish get ups. Their focus may be different than ours, but the training excersizes are fairly similar (Christian Thibaudeau and Charles staley expose the benefits of O-lifting on a regular basis).

If you're a CFer looking to get bigger (for what ever reason), I would say Strength Mill Forums and T-Nation are the places to start.

Anthony Marshall 11-07-2008 11:37 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Wow, I see we got a couple of big names posting in here now. I must say I'm glad to see that.

Using Waterbury's workouts in the past always gave me a good workout. I've read and used quite a few hypertrophy training plans before (including those in "New Rules of Lifting")...and I've always had good results.

There are two important things to remember when it comes to "fitness", and it was good to see the article hit on one of them (2):
1. Pick goals that are attainable and resonate with your desired outcome.
2. Choose the means which best suit that outcome.

I used to only lift just for the love of lifting. I didn't always make gains..but I didn't always follow my training plan either. I just lifted because I loved the feeling of being in the gym. Now that I've been out of the gym for so long, my goal is changing my body composition while gaining some strength and endurance all while keeping the workout short.

Kevin Hughes 11-07-2008 04:38 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony Marshall (Post 441015)
Wow, I see we got a couple of big names posting in here now. I must say I'm glad to see that.
I've read and used quite a few hypertrophy training plans before (including those in "New Rules of Lifting")...and I've always had good results.

You mean names like Everett, Wolf, Bingo, Bainbridge and others, right?

Phillip Garrison 11-07-2008 11:17 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Rakow (Post 440725)
I thought the article was good, but it still failed to capture what CrossFit is all about. Glad the author visited a couple of affiliates, but perhaps he should try to get to a L1 cert to get the full flavor of the basic certification program, which lays out the fundamentals of the CrossFit program.

As for T-nation, it's for a sport specific program - bodybuilding. CrossFit isn't about bodybuilding. CrossFit is all about improving fitness across the board without limiting the training stimulus to specific areas. Those who experience CF long enough (some on the first workout), "get it."

CF can be done by everyone, but it isn't for everyone. Some just don't want to work hard enough to get benefit of intense WODs. Some don't want to train outside their sport-specific areas. I think the article misses that point.

As for disparaging Coach, that is unfair. Coach is one of the more gracious people I've ever met. If you disagree with him, though, back up your position with facts and not attacks. If your way turns out to produce a more well rounded athlete, then CF will probably adopt that method. As of yet, no program out there can produce the type of general physical preparedness that CF does. And to be fair, a few years back, T-Nation really tried to hammer CF and Coach. I don't blame Coach if he holds a grudge against T-Nation and those who turned their back on CF and Coach. Duplicitous to say the least.

He didn't bother with the cert, because outside of CF it doesn't really hold any creed. The things he said about Glassman are warranted, he has said those things both publicly and on the net and has been known to be venemous to people who object to his methods.

Jason Donaldson 11-08-2008 03:18 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Overall, not a bad article. Fairly well balanced and researched. But I was disappointed to see Cosgrove, Boyd and Poliquin quoted in there. There's three blokes who clearly don't get it.

Regarding Uncle Rhabdo. CrossFit has done more to raise awareness of Rhabdo than any other fitness organisation/movement etc bar none. Uncle Rhabdo is about raising awareness, not having a laugh. That's what Pukie is for, because, lets face it, it's fcking funny when someone has a technicolour yawn during or after a hard session! :D

Regarding Coach Glassman. From my contact with the bloke, I haven't got a bad word to say. I'll continue to take people as I find them and come to my own conclusions.

Finally, thanks Chris for at least taking the time to do a couple of sessions to see what its all about.

Coach 11-08-2008 04:00 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Nick Cummings,

“Research and thought”? You are exceedingly generous.

Our very public and constant claim is that fitness is best defined as work capacity across broad time and modal domains; that meaningful assertions about a program need to address safety, efficacy, and efficiency with measurable, observable, repeatable data; that constantly varied, high intensity, functional movement delivered in a competitive sporting environment has produced unprecedented work capacity across broad time and modal domains (fitness); that by incorporating a lifestyle, including diet, rest, and workout elements that cause common health and fitness metrics to move simultaneously from pathological, past “normal”, to “fit” values we introduce a third axis, age, that turns our two dimensional work capacity area under the curve to a three dimensional solid whose volume defines both health and fitness (making health a logical facet of fitness); that all of this needs to be delivered publicly where methods, results, and criticisms, are transparent and, finally, that iterations of this effort have fed an open source community where experimentation will demonstrate best practices and ultimately advance the art and science of human performance .

This is what a well thought out and researched article would have addressed. I would have loved to discuss or debate any or all of this. What I got from Chris Shugart instead was a handful of questions designed to fuel traffic-generating gossip and hatred. I declined and called instead to give him some source material for what was the journalistic thrust of his article: my personality.



Christoper Day, Phillip Garrsonq, Joe Cavazos,

CrossFit is the world leader in rhabdo prevention and awareness. It’s very likely that the overwhelming majority of people who know about rhabdo today were introduced to the subject by our committed efforts. That you’re embarrassed by Uncle Rhabdo while the community of nephrologists continues to buy T-shirts bearing his image says more about you than us.

I’m guessing that you think “Kami”, the HIV positive Sesame Street character, makes fun of AIDS and that Smokey the Bear is an inducement to torturing animals.

Admit it, gentlemen, without Uncle Rhabdo, you’d have never heard of Rhabdomyolysis.



Christopher Day,

My claims about hypertrophy are based on several decades of working in Gold’s Gyms throughout California, including the “Mecca of Bodybuilding" and comparing physiques of natural, “natural”, and steroidal bodybuilders to gymnasts and CrossFitters. That I’d have gotten spectacularly angry responses to what is quite simply my observation suggests to me that I’m correct.



Phillip Garrsonq,

Your claim that I’ve been venomous to people who object to my methods is entirely and perfectly untrue. I pay people to offer criticism and object to my methods. I’m venomous towards unethical behavior. Get the difference?

Your claim that outside of CF our cert doesn’t hold any creed flies in the face with the fact that our largest customer for cert’s is the US Military paying on public funds. We’ll do five more Mil/LEO certs before the year is out.

On the subject of CrossFit, Sir, you’re quite in the dark. Read more and post less, please.



Brandon Oto,

We’ve hired an actuarial firm with working access to insurance claim form data assessing the rhabdo risk. There’s enough written in peer reviewed literature, available on the Net, to make an irrefutable case for the claim that we don’t have but a small fraction of the rhabdo incidence rate of many popular sports and conventional mil/LEO PT. I take the subject quite seriously and we know quite a bit about the distribution of risk.



All,

Getting our competitors in the marketplace (Polliquin, Cosgrove, Boyle, Cook, …) to speak poorly of our efforts is like getting Montgomery Wards, Woolworths, and Mervyn's to speak poorly of WalMart – meaningless and obvious in motivation.

What about work capacity across broad time and modal domains? What do they have to say about that? Answwer: Nothing. What do they have to say about safety, efficacy, and efficiency buttressed by measurable, observable, repeatable data? Answer: Nothing. What is their response for our call to “evidence based fitness?” Answer: Nothing. What about our two and three-dimensional models of fitness and health? Answer: Nothing.

I know why.

Finally, I want to thank everyone here, moderators included, for your gracious support and contribution to what is the finest fitness community on earth.



Chris Shugart,

I want to repeat my offer for you to come to a seminar as my guest. Let me know when you’re coming and I’ll make sure I’m presenting. Afterward, we’ll go out and have some beers so you can get some more background for my biography. Your writing will really take-off with some research. You may even find that information changes your mind. It does mine. (Smile)



Chad Waterbury,

Welcome to CrossFit. Thank you for the kind words.



Tim Patterson (Owner of T-Nation),

You've inspired me to fund a scientific test of your supplements! Which one would you like us to check out first? This could be big for you. Can you see it..."The Truth About T-Nation". (Really big smile)

Jason Lopez-Ota 11-08-2008 04:46 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach (Post 441535)
I’m guessing that you think “Kami”, the HIV positive Sesame Street character, makes fun of AIDS

Nice! You must have read my post.

Nick Cummings 11-08-2008 07:06 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
The line of work I am going into requires me to be exceedingly generous in my public statements. No insult was meant and I believe my thoughts can be discerned from my post.

Its good to read posts from you again, Coach.

Zach Mitchell 11-08-2008 02:15 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
I haven't been involved very much on the boards since I became a CrossFitter in January, but every once in a while I enjoy reading what is here and/or posting my own questions/comments.

Just when I was beginning to think that CrossFit was becomming a name brand and spread too thin to manage the quality of Affiliates and how they're interpreting CF instruction was leading to a breakdown of such a well-developed and tight-knit community, Coach comes in with one fell swoop and tightens the reigns, reminding the community as a whole, what CrossFit is about.

Don't ever stop posting Coach. No matter how well you have trained anyone after you they just won't be the same. As much as we want it to be the same as it was in the beginning it just won't be without your constant influence.

Steve Rakow 11-08-2008 02:37 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Who's Waterbury?

Jamie J. Skibicki 11-09-2008 10:51 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Google is your friend, Steve.

Steve Rakow 11-09-2008 03:49 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
No s**t, Jamie. The question was written tongue-n-cheek. My point is that I haven't seen anything Waterbury has out there that comes close to what Coach has published - WODs included.

Matthew Stafford 11-09-2008 05:36 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Rakow (Post 442296)
No s**t, Jamie. The question was written tongue-n-cheek. My point is that I haven't seen anything Waterbury has out there that comes close to what Coach has published - WODs included.

Waterbury comes here to say something great about the CrossFit community and you see fit to insult him? Classy.

Phillip Garrison 11-10-2008 02:51 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach (Post 441535)
Nick Cummings,

“Research and thought”? You are exceedingly generous.

Our very public and constant claim is that fitness is best defined as work capacity across broad time and modal domains; that meaningful assertions about a program need to address safety, efficacy, and efficiency with measurable, observable, repeatable data; that constantly varied, high intensity, functional movement delivered in a competitive sporting environment has produced unprecedented work capacity across broad time and modal domains (fitness); that by incorporating a lifestyle, including diet, rest, and workout elements that cause common health and fitness metrics to move simultaneously from pathological, past “normal”, to “fit” values we introduce a third axis, age, that turns our two dimensional work capacity area under the curve to a three dimensional solid whose volume defines both health and fitness (making health a logical facet of fitness); that all of this needs to be delivered publicly where methods, results, and criticisms, are transparent and, finally, that iterations of this effort have fed an open source community where experimentation will demonstrate best practices and ultimately advance the art and science of human performance .

This is what a well thought out and researched article would have addressed. I would have loved to discuss or debate any or all of this. What I got from Chris Shugart instead was a handful of questions designed to fuel traffic-generating gossip and hatred. I declined and called instead to give him some source material for what was the journalistic thrust of his article: my personality.



Christoper Day, Phillip Garrsonq, Joe Cavazos,

CrossFit is the world leader in rhabdo prevention and awareness. It’s very likely that the overwhelming majority of people who know about rhabdo today were introduced to the subject by our committed efforts. That you’re embarrassed by Uncle Rhabdo while the community of nephrologists continues to buy T-shirts bearing his image says more about you than us.

I’m guessing that you think “Kami”, the HIV positive Sesame Street character, makes fun of AIDS and that Smokey the Bear is an inducement to torturing animals.

Admit it, gentlemen, without Uncle Rhabdo, you’d have never heard of Rhabdomyolysis.



Christopher Day,

My claims about hypertrophy are based on several decades of working in Gold’s Gyms throughout California, including the “Mecca of Bodybuilding" and comparing physiques of natural, “natural”, and steroidal bodybuilders to gymnasts and CrossFitters. That I’d have gotten spectacularly angry responses to what is quite simply my observation suggests to me that I’m correct.



Phillip Garrsonq,

Your claim that I’ve been venomous to people who object to my methods is entirely and perfectly untrue. I pay people to offer criticism and object to my methods. I’m venomous towards unethical behavior. Get the difference?

Your claim that outside of CF our cert doesn’t hold any creed flies in the face with the fact that our largest customer for cert’s is the US Military paying on public funds. We’ll do five more Mil/LEO certs before the year is out.

On the subject of CrossFit, Sir, you’re quite in the dark. Read more and post less, please.



Brandon Oto,

We’ve hired an actuarial firm with working access to insurance claim form data assessing the rhabdo risk. There’s enough written in peer reviewed literature, available on the Net, to make an irrefutable case for the claim that we don’t have but a small fraction of the rhabdo incidence rate of many popular sports and conventional mil/LEO PT. I take the subject quite seriously and we know quite a bit about the distribution of risk.



All,

Getting our competitors in the marketplace (Polliquin, Cosgrove, Boyle, Cook, …) to speak poorly of our efforts is like getting Montgomery Wards, Woolworths, and Mervyn's to speak poorly of WalMart – meaningless and obvious in motivation.

What about work capacity across broad time and modal domains? What do they have to say about that? Answwer: Nothing. What do they have to say about safety, efficacy, and efficiency buttressed by measurable, observable, repeatable data? Answer: Nothing. What is their response for our call to “evidence based fitness?” Answer: Nothing. What about our two and three-dimensional models of fitness and health? Answer: Nothing.

I know why.

Finally, I want to thank everyone here, moderators included, for your gracious support and contribution to what is the finest fitness community on earth.



Chris Shugart,

I want to repeat my offer for you to come to a seminar as my guest. Let me know when you’re coming and I’ll make sure I’m presenting. Afterward, we’ll go out and have some beers so you can get some more background for my biography. Your writing will really take-off with some research. You may even find that information changes your mind. It does mine. (Smile)



Chad Waterbury,

Welcome to CrossFit. Thank you for the kind words.



Tim Patterson (Owner of T-Nation),

You've inspired me to fund a scientific test of your supplements! Which one would you like us to check out first? This could be big for you. Can you see it..."The Truth About T-Nation". (Really big smile)

Coach, I never claimed CF wasn't doing anything to try and prevent Rhabdo, but it also is in poor taste to make fun of it also. If you want to distant yourself from the rhabdo stigma, don't make light of a rare, but serious condition. For the record i knew about rhabdomyolsis long before I learned of CF a training protocol I do espouse.

Using the Military as the "proof" that CF is now the premier cert within the sport exercise industry is a poor comparison, as the military is notoriously behind the curve in proper exercise science testing and instruction. Being a working S&C coach who is a member of both the NSCA, and ACSM I can tell you within the exercise science community CF is not looked down upon, but also as not seen as anything revolutionary since you/it espouses concepts and exercises that have been part of professional and academic S&C curriculum for nearly 50 years in the Soviet Union and nearly 30 years here in the US. While I applaud you for your efforts in bringing such solid techniques to the relatively uneducated masses, most within the community do not regard CF as anything revolutionary and nothing more than deliberatly unstructured GPP. This does not diminish from the efficacy of what CF can do however.

The criticisims that many have about CF are that they have not been subject to scientific scrutiny using the rigid standards to which many of the protocols espoused by Epley, Poliqiun, etc have had their training protocols held up to. While Epley and Poliquin certainly have had their detractors over the years, they also are willing to let the training programs they espouse be put up to scrutiny both in the labratory and on the field of athletic performance, which may be their particular problem with CF.

Phillip Garrison 11-10-2008 03:44 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
If it seems i'm not supportive of CF, that's not the case. I'm a big proponent of CF for many people, I'm also a big fan of Gym Jones, Undulating Periodization, Bloc Training, Bondercjuk, Westside, Athletes Performance to name a few. Like Cf I'm a fan of them becuase they produce results and are well planned out, and like CF I think while good programs, they have all inherent weaknesses, all programs do.

Coach 11-11-2008 03:01 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Phillip,

We never made fun of Rhabdo. Kami doesn’t make fun of HIV. Smokey isn’t making fun of burned bears. I don’t know if I could be any clearer.

I’ve got no interest in removing myself from the “stigma of rhabdo”. If educating people causes others, like yourself, to be confused, that’s a price I will gladly pay. Our game plan has always been to win over the smart people first.

I have no choice but to take your word for your claim that you knew about rhabdo ahead of our work

Where did you get the idea that I thought that the military’s implementation and adoption of CrossFit was proof of anything? Why in the world would you put “proof” in quotation marks? Look, here’s where I goofed. I responded to what you posted not what you’d meant to say; I do that a lot. You said, (notice the quotes) “He didn't bother with the cert, because outside of CF it doesn't really hold any creed.” That statement is flat out false. By the way, proof is the exclusive province of mathematics. Science doesn’t involve proof or proving.

Your claim that CrossFit is not revolutionary “since you/it espouses concepts and exercises that have been part of professional and academic S&C curriculum for over 50 years…” is illogical nonsense. We did nothing new just took the same old stuff and combined it in new ways? In this manner no recipe is original if the ingredients are known. No song is original if the same old notes are used. No poem is original if the words contained therein are found in the dictionary.

Your comment about the “relatively uneducated masses” is an insult and coming from a guy who too often fails to create coherent sentences, struggles with simple logic, grammar, and spelling, misuses quotations, and offers NSCA and ACSM membership as scientific credentials it is insufferable. Philip you’re less educated than most of the people posting here and most assuredly less educated than our best educated. (I’m being nice here because my biographer from T-Nation, Chris Shugart, is here)

You say that “the criticisims that many have about CF are that they have not been subject to scientific scrutiny using the rigid standards to which many of the protocols espoused by Epley, Poliqiun, etc have had their training protocols held up to”. First of all, I’ve not seen that criticism anywhere. Second I don’t know of any scientific scrutiny of any fitness program.

You say that Epley and Poliquin are ”willing to let the training programs they espouse be put up to scrutiny both in the labratory and on the field of athletic performance, which may be their particular problem with CF”. Are you implying that I’m not willing to have the scientific validity of CrossFit be tested? I’m not only willing but begging.

The problem is that NSCA and ACSM "members" like you don’t see in language like this,

“Our very public and constant claim is that fitness is best defined as work capacity across broad time and modal domains; that meaningful assertions about a program need to address safety, efficacy, and efficiency with measurable, observable, repeatable data; that constantly varied, high intensity, functional movement delivered in a competitive sporting environment has produced unprecedented work capacity across broad time and modal domains (fitness); that by incorporating a lifestyle, including diet, rest, and workout elements that cause common health and fitness metrics to move simultaneously from pathological, past “normal”, to “fit” values we introduce a third axis, age, that turns our two dimensional work capacity area under the curve to a three dimensional solid whose volume defines both health and fitness (making health a logical facet of fitness); that all of this needs to be delivered publicly where methods, results, and criticisms, are transparent and, finally, that iterations of this effort have fed an open source community where experimentation will demonstrate best practices and ultimately advance the art and science of human performance .”

any testable propositions, scientific assertions – hypothesis or theories. They don’t recognize a revolutionary approach to fitness and a revolutionary quantifiable model of fitness and health that for the first time integrates both. They don’t see an intriguing new social construct for advancing human performance threatening to outpace and replace moribund commercial and academic approaches. They’re not willing to respond to a dialog that would be made meaningful by accepting our call for evidence-based fitness.

They don’t see data in performance scores when they’re posted as workout results or where people are having fun.

What they offer in response is mindless screed like you and T-Nation’s readers offer. Notice, friends, how not one poster at T-Nation even peripherally offers a criticism of CrossFit’s fundamental assertions. Not one.

There’s no evidence to suggest that my friend and biographer, Chris Shugart, or ANY of the posters have learned what it is that CrossFit claims.

How can you take my challenge of reviewing CrossFit and every other fitness program by examining effect, efficiency, and safety with measurable, observable, repeatable data, and then imply our unwillingness to engage in scientific inquiry?

Your claim that CrossFit has not been put to scrutiny on the field of athletic performance is an insult to the professional, Olympic, collegiate, and amateur champions that grace these very pages and workout with our affiliates around the world. It also speaks to my contention that you know very little about CrossFit.

The best you could do with any of this was what you offered here? Philip, you’re in way over your head.

Again, read more, post less.

Chris Shugart, I’m trying to be nicer. I really am.

Kevin Wood 11-11-2008 07:34 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Coach - You should really write a book.

Casey Raiford 11-11-2008 07:49 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
I was just thinking the other day that I'd really like a Crossfit book.

Shawn Casey 11-11-2008 12:49 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
All I have to say is that I've never looked a uncle rhabdo and laughed or said," Damn, I want to be like that guy". I see a clown(a word that's known for a careless person) with his kidneys on the floor and I think, "damn, what's that all about" and then I look around and find out about rhabdo and then I don't do what he did to get his kidneys on the floor. I tell myself,"damn, I'd better scale". Plus, unless I'm mistaken, the only guy that didn't come back to crossfit after a case of rhabdo was the sailor guy and obviously that dude was way out of shape. Plus, no one has died from crossfit induced rhabdo so, my point of view is that car crash rhabdo= not funny, crossfit rhabdo= not so bad if you joke about it.

I also want to point out that I don't blame coach or crossfit for putting out technically difficult exercises to the masses and then some *******es going straight into the WOD or trying to squat clean 135 lbs without learning the technique first. I blame the gobo gyms, the pinsetters,the magazines, nautilus, stability balls, and the ab rocker; here's why. Your average joe goes to the gym and all the exercises are really easy, he does routines with these exercises for awhile ,then he sees some jerkoff in Fitness rx doing an overhead squat or a power clean with the bar in his hands(not in the rack position) or he gets on crossfit and doesn't read start here. Joe thinks this looks really cool but he doesn't distinguish between a powerclean and barbell row or a metcon from a pace circuit(just like curves)or a ti bao class and he goes into the gym and throughs 135 lbs on the bar and tries to clean or goes full force on Angie. We all have to remember that part of being in a country like America and having the freedom that comes along with it also means taking responsibility for ones self. Sure, I have the balls to run a marathon tomarrow but, after doing nothing but the Rippitoe's for 5 months, I don't think it's a good idea.

Next to putting a blood red sign pointing to the start here button, I don't think coach can do much to spark responsibility in people. That was there parents job......

.........or maybe I'm just way out of line.

Shawn Casey 11-11-2008 12:53 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Oh and Mr. Waterbury, thanks for making your first post. Your welcome here anytime. Some people here want to know about building mass and that stuff so, unless you preach 2 in. curls in a squat rack, I'm all ears.

Ganine Vanalst 11-11-2008 01:33 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Like other posters I can’t understand the controversy over Uncle Rhabdo. Who gives a sh*t if it’s a clown getting the message out; injecting a little humor into the delivery does not negate the educational value of the message be delivered. Now if CrossFit chose to deliver the message using a syphilitic whore riding naked barebacked on a well-hung horse enticing all those who cross her path to engage in feats of sexual acrobatics (using gymnastics rings of course) that result in Rhabdo, well…then…maybe I could understand why people would be offended. But a clown? Lighten up. As an earlier poster observed, this seems to be a case of confusing the messenger with the message. The bottom line is the information is being disseminated to the general public and that is of immense value. Uncle Rhabdo is not offensive; willful ignorance is offensive.

I am a certified personal trainer with ACSM and a hypochondriac (there are not many diseases or disorders I haven’t heard of and suffered from at least once) and I’ve never heard of Rhabdo until I found CrossFit. I am also a member of ACSM. I receive their journal, Health & Fitness, every month and get emails from them regularly; I can’t recall ever reading about Rhabdo in an ACSM journal or email. Last week I looked through my ACSM training manuals for mention of Rhabdo and could not find one. CrossFit is not being irresponsible; the failure to promote awareness of Rhabdo by a certifying body of fitness professionals that consider themselves “the gold standard” is irresponsible.

Jamie J. Skibicki 11-11-2008 01:49 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
"syphilitic whore riding naked barebacked on a well-hung horse enticing all those who cross her path to engage in feats of sexual acrobatics (using gymnastics rings of course) that result in Rhabdo"


I love this guy, we so need to hang out.

Brandon Oto 11-11-2008 01:49 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Well, now that we seem to have you on the line, here's a specific methodological concern as you seem to be asking for, Glassman:

What specific reasons do you have for labeling work capacity as the primary goal of CrossFit, over and above other athletic demands?

I've asked and wondered this before, both publicly and privately. You seem to assert that this is the sine qua non of fitness, but it's not clear why this should be true, given that for some activities it's a critical component (boxing), but for others it's minimally relevant (powerlifting). Perhaps you could weigh in on this.

David Vessey 11-11-2008 02:40 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach (Post 443579)
Phillip,

...
If educating people causes others, like yourself, to be confused, that’s a price I will gladly pay. Our game plan has always been to win over the smart people first.
...


Coach, you come off rough, but I gotta say I love this quote. I'm all for helping people, but enough of constantly aiming for the lowest common denominator.


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