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-   -   Best SS + CF hybrid? (https://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=26683)

Erik Eliassen 01-26-2008 09:47 AM

Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
Hey folks. Sorry if I'm annoying anyone by asking this, as I've seen the question of how to blend SS into your CF routine pop up here a fair few times.

[B]Short story:[/B]
I want to gain mass and strength, and I am wondering how to best do it when you're already very active.

[B]Long story:[/B]
I've been doing CF + zone for only a couple of months, and already the results are amazing. My numbers on the bw exercises has just exploded. Pre-CF I used to be able to do only 6-10 pull-ups. Last "Lynne" I did 23 on the first set, and 15 rounds last "Pullup Ladder".
Last Cindy was 18,5 rounds, Michael sub 19 min etc. But then theres my CFT.. Only 500 lbs. And there are still many exercises I struggle to do as rx'ed.

I'm 6'0" and I weigh in at only 148 lbs, so it may not be very surprising that strength is lacking. As it feels as my biggest weakness, I want to work to improve it. Last "Fran" I spent 15,07 min on, and out of those 15 min its probably 10 min resting from how much rx'ed thrusters are killing me. I was still really sore from 400m lunges though. I still cant do any of the bench press workouts as rx'ed, and there are heaps of other barbell exercises I have to scale down as well.

Obviously I should gain some mass as I'm a skinny bastard :shrug:

Now I have ordered SS from Amazon, but I live in Europe so it will probably take a while. I'm looking to interprate it into my workout schedule, which is CrossFit 3 days + 1 rest as posted on the website + martial arts:

[I][U]Monday:[/U][/I]
Boxing + Krav Maga
[I][U]Tuesday:[/U][/I]
Boxing + MMA
[I][U]Wednesday:[/U][/I]
Krav Maga
[I][U]Thursday:[/U][/I]
Boxing
[I][U]Fri, Sat, Sun:[/U][/I]
Weekend, time for some rest, aye?

This has worked fine for as long as I've been doing CrossFit. It's obviously a lot, but I eat clean and I eat enough so its all good. I try to get 8 hours sleep every night. :highfive:

Several of my sparring partners weigh around 180 lbs, and I want to work my way up there as well, because they just hit a lot harder than me, and are really advantagous when it comes to grappling. I dont compete in any of the sports yet, so I'm not too concerned about weight classes, but obviously I dont want all the weight in my legs when I compete in boxing.

So how do I fit SS into this? I'm considering to skip boxing on mondays as its optional, but I dont want to miss out on any of the other classes.
I see that some people drop CF entirely for the period they're on the SS program, while others do something like CF, SS, CF, Rest or CF, CF, SS, Rest. Personally I have no idea what would be best for me. I'm pretty keen to gain a lot of mass and strength asap, but I dont want to lose too much of the fitness I have worked up. Now as I am as active as I am outside CF it might not be neccessary to do as many MetCons as some other people I guess..

Any thoughts people?

Tim Donahey 01-26-2008 10:33 AM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
Had I not gotten the hernia, this could have worked for me. [url]http://www.board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=25531[/url]

You'll need a moderately large work capacity and CF days would need to be hand picked/tailored to not conflict with the SS workouts. For example, Helen and Cindy don't clash with SS like Linda or Lynne do. Alternatively you could do Tabatas or HIIT.

David Stout 01-26-2008 10:45 AM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
With all that you've got on your plate with the martial arts training PLUS the full time CF schedule of 3 on 1 off, it'll be tough to do. Moreover the results vs. doing nothing but SS would be impacted.

Having said that, I believe it is possible to work it in (just about anything is with proper planning) if it's something you want to pursue. Just keep in mind that again the returns from the training won't be as described in the book you'll be reading because of what all you're doing.

I would approach it by laying out what is your first priority and then charting in the remainder of the training which would be considered supplemental. One approach might place (temporarily mind you) priority on Starting Strength training as described in the book for 3 full days per week. Then put in what's next important to you, and so on. Everything that follows Starting Strength in this example is purely supplemental and should not be programmed so as to effect the results (negatively) of that training. Rippetoe has stated in another forum:

[QUOTE]It depends on where you perceive that your training should be focused. If you're not strong enough to effectively do the WODs, it makes sense to focus on SS for a while to get better at force production and then go back to CF. If your strength is good now and your primary interest is in CF GPP conditioning, strength work occurs often enough in the WOD that you can just do it like that. Assuming you mean that you need to concentrate on strength for a while, I'd start with straight SS programming, and then add one metcon workout after 3-4 weeks and see how your strength work responds. Probably 2 metcon/3 SS workouts/week is all you can tolerate, and just follow that until strength progress plateaus, at which time you go back to full-time CF. But this will be hard to do without enough calories going in, and strict Zone makes this hard. Good luck. [/QUOTE]

I hope this helps.

I'm in week 2 of a 6 week experiment where I am following 3 full standard Starting Strength days and 2 CF days per week. This has been really tough, and super hard to find the energy to complete each day. In addition, I can only seem to up the loads minimally each day. I am considering tapering back the metcons to see better results and take it easier on my body already. It really is that tough. Even with following the Zone Diet very strictly, resting well, etc. Which I am doing.

Once I feel better I may reintroduce the metcons in weeks 5 & 6. Then again, I'm no CrossFit monster by anymeans.

You may want to check out the great SS posts by Forum Member, Tim Donahey. He's been really helpful to me in terms of approaching this.

Hope this helps,

David Stout
CF Chattanooga

David Stout 01-26-2008 10:47 AM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
Of course he's typing a response as I type mine. :rofl:

Awesome Tim. Hope you're doing well bro and already on the road to recovery. Man this is tough going for sure.

David
CF Chattanooga

Erik Eliassen 01-26-2008 11:09 AM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
Thanks for the replies guys, I really appreciate it! I had already read the thread you linked Tim, and I find it really helpful. Maybe it would be enough with the standard SS program + 0-1 MetCons per week then.. The martial arts classes can be pretty exhausting, and I might be underestimating how much the SS would actually get to me.

Perhaps something like

Monday:
Krav Maga (active rest day)

Tuesday:
SS A + Boxing + MMA

Wednesday:
Krav Maga (active rest day)

Thursday:
Boxing + MetCon/skill practice

Friday:
SS B

Saturday:
Rest day

Sunday:
SS A


Any inputs?

Tim Donahey 01-26-2008 11:09 AM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
I'm glad David took the time to spell out what I didn't Great advice, Dave.

Tim Donahey 01-26-2008 11:22 AM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
I guess "active rest" depends on how demanding your KM classes are. We do a lot of combatives and I go all out on them, and anytime you're going all out, that can't be considered active rest, because it's active activity. If you're able to keep your percieved exersion low enough at KM, then that might be okay... but what you have layed out there is fairly ambitious. I used yoga as my active rest, between SS (AM) and KM (PM), but still kept two strict rest days, each following an SS day, which was when my CNS needed the most recovery.

The more metcon/fight based activities you have programmed, the more your results from SS will be affected negatively. I would drop either a boxing or crossfit day and try to fit in another rest day. Or drop the boxing (or your smallest priority activity) altogether, to return to after you complete a cycle of SS.

Erik Eliassen 01-26-2008 11:23 AM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
About my goals, I guess we could say my number one goal at the time is to gain mass and strength. I want to make sure I dont reduce my times on the MetCons though. Not by too much anyway. I havent even done CF long enough to have done a WOD worse than last time it came up.

I am also a bit interested in training skills like the muscle-up, which I have been doing every now and then. HSPU and stuff like that is fun too, but if I want to do HSPU's I might want to do that instead of shoulder press one day I guess? So much stuff to think about..

Tim Donahey 01-26-2008 11:33 AM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
[QUOTE=Erik Eliassen;247929]About my goals, I guess we could say my number one goal at the time is to gain mass and strength. I want to make sure I dont reduce my times on the MetCons though. Not by too much anyway. I havent even done CF long enough to have done a WOD worse than last time it came up.

I am also a bit interested in training skills like the muscle-up, which I have been doing every now and then. HSPU and stuff like that is fun too, but if I want to do HSPU's I might want to do that instead of shoulder press one day I guess? So much stuff to think about..[/QUOTE]

Honestly it doesn't sound like you've accrued enough conditioning to handle "all of it". I recommend you do 3 days of SS, 2 days of 1 fight class each, and 2 days of rest, until your strength base is at a competitive level. This is generally 2xBW Deadlift, 1.5xBW Squat, BW Bench Press, BW Power Clean, and .75 BW Press. And eat like you're getting paid by the calorie.

Erik Eliassen 01-26-2008 11:35 AM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
You might be right about that Tim. Dropping boxing is not an option I'm afraid :( In the setup I put up there there are only two boxing trainings though. The KM classes can be demanding, but it hasnt been a problem going to them on CF rest days for the past two months. I only had a full rest day when the CF rest days fell on a friday, saturday or sunday. Did you guys find your energy levels really different while on SS compared to CF?

How would doing SS and a MetCon on the same day (in order to get a full rest day the day after) work out? SS AM, MetCon PM.

Tim Donahey 01-26-2008 11:38 AM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
[QUOTE=Erik Eliassen;247934]You might be right about that Tim. Dropping boxing is not an option I'm afraid :( In the setup I put up there there are only two boxing trainings though. The KM classes can be demanding, but it hasnt been a problem going to them on CF rest days for the past two months. I only had a full rest day when the CF rest days fell on a friday, saturday or sunday. Did you guys find your energy levels really different while on SS compared to CF?

How would doing SS and a MetCon on the same day (in order to get a full rest day the day after) work out? SS AM, MetCon PM.[/QUOTE]

I would follow Coach Rippetoe's advice exactly as described in David's post above.

[QUOTE]I guess we could say my number one goal at the time is to gain mass and strength.[/QUOTE]

then make that your priority!

David Stout 01-26-2008 12:07 PM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
Erik,

Do you have any classes (Boxing, KM, MMA) available on Saturday or Sunday.

I'm taking a look at how you might chart it out.

David

Erik Eliassen 01-26-2008 12:07 PM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
[QUOTE=Tim Donahey;247936]I would follow Coach Rippetoe's advice exactly as described in David's post above.



then make that your priority![/QUOTE]

Righto. Then MetCons are out! I'm sorry I'm a bit stubborn on not cutting down on the martial arts :rofl: I understand that that is probably the biggest problem here. I'll skip a class whenever I feel that I need it to recover.

An option then might be

Monday:
Boxing + Krav Maga
Tuesday:
SS + Boxing + MMA
Wednesday:
Krav Maga
Thursday:
SS
Friday:
[B]Rest[/B]
Saturday:
SS
Sunday:
[B]Rest[/B]

With the option to skip a class. It already seems like so little though!
Closing in on sanity? :)


David: No I'm afraid not, thats a bit of the problem here :(
Boxing: Mon, Tue, Thu
MMA: Tue (Thats the only one, so I dont want to miss it)
Krav Maga: Mon, Wed

Tim Donahey 01-26-2008 12:20 PM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
That looks more reasonable. And I think fight classes in lieu of CF is a good move. If there's any way to redistribute the rest days into a 3on-1off-2on-1off protocol, I think you will thank yourself on Thursday.

David Stout 01-26-2008 12:23 PM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
Yeah, but that Tuesday is gonna freaking kill you man.

[QUOTE]Tuesday:
SS + Boxing + MMA[/QUOTE]

David Stout 01-26-2008 12:32 PM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
OK. You’ve put yourself in a firm spot to start from with this:

[QUOTE]I guess we could say my number one goal at the time is to gain mass and strength.[/QUOTE]

Ok. So just for six weeks, give yourself the time to focus on your number one goal. Six weeks is a drop in the bucket compared to the return on investment you could have with focusing on Starting Strength. With 18-19 rounds of Cindy and a 500 CrossFit Total you’ve got a bit (a BIG issue from my perspective as a coach) of a balance issue that would warrant your above priority and taking some time to step away and specialize to be better at not specializing when you get back.

I would give this a try, following the Novice programming recommendations from Starting Strength, which is obviously in the book you’ve ordered but is also clearly outlined by Tim in his posts. This doesn’t look like as much, but it’s fairly balanced out through the whole week and should be pretty tough enough. Eat a freaking ton, drink your milk, and you’ll see some success I think.

Monday
Rest

Tuesday
Boxing & MMA

Wednesday
Starting Strength

Thursday
Boxing

Friday
Starting Strength

Saturday
Rest

Sunday
Starting Strength

Yes you are taking a break in your training (the Krav). If you’re not fighting professionally right now, six weeks isn’t going to kill your conditioning. It’ll be worth it when you come back. You may see such good progress, you may want to give it more like 6-9 weeks.

Just my .02 bro.

Best of luck,

David
CF Chattanooga

Erik Eliassen 01-26-2008 12:34 PM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
Well there is always this option:

Monday:
SS + Boxing + Krav Maga
Tuesday:
Boxing + MMA
Wednesday:
SS + Krav Maga
Thursday:
Rest
Friday:
SS
Saturday:
Rest
Sunday:
Rest

I think that the recovery from SS on monday to SS on wednesday will not be as good like that though.
The tuesday has been pretty deadly for the past two months, so I fully agree with you on that. I'm lucky enough to have a job that let me do SS during the day, if its on the weekdays, so it'll be better than when I used to do Boxing, then MMA, then CF. So not sure about how to distribute the training during that first part of the week..

Erik Eliassen 01-26-2008 12:47 PM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
Thanks David! I dont think I would be able to entirely stay away from Krav for 6 weeks though. Would you on no occasion do SS and martial arts on the same day, even if they are many hours apart? I am able to do Starting Strength at midday, while the Krav classes are at like 9 pm. For example what you just set up for me there, plus Krav on wednesday? My Krav trainer is also my CF coach and its gonna be a bit weird if I wasnt there for 6 weeks. The fact that he is also my CF coach would let me be able to drill mostly on technique on the Krav trainings, and skip some of the purely physical stuff if I wanted to.

Again, thanks a lot for taking the time helping me out with this :)

Tim Donahey 01-26-2008 12:48 PM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
[QUOTE=Erik Eliassen;247969]Well there is always this option:

Monday:
SS + Boxing + Krav Maga
Tuesday:
Boxing + MMA
Wednesday:
SS + Krav Maga
Thursday:
Rest
Friday:
SS
Saturday:
Rest
Sunday:
Rest

[/QUOTE]

Try it out.

Tim Donahey 01-26-2008 12:49 PM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
I found SS in the AM and Krav in the PM works well.

Erik Eliassen 01-26-2008 01:14 PM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
I might give that one a go actually. Possibly with one less Krav lesson. Its a lot of work the three first days, but three full rest days later on which should allow for recovery. If it feels like too much, I'll give Davids setup a go. I've bought some gainer to go along with the milk, so this might turn out pretty good :)

David Stout 01-26-2008 02:14 PM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
Good luck and keep us posted man!

Get STRONG!

David

Tim Donahey 01-26-2008 02:50 PM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
Weight gainer or whey protein? Weight gainer is crap... basically Protein + Sugar=Commercial Weight Gainer. Look at the ingrediants.

if you're doing the gallon of milk per day thing... you're pretty much set.

Steven Low 01-26-2008 03:08 PM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
I think it would be better to start with CF, Krav and boxing and then start adding im SS as his conditioning level increases. Since we really don't know his conditioning at the moment.. it's probably not the best idea to program everything in at once in the beginning. But yeah. Shrug. Gotta learn what works for his body.

Erik Eliassen 01-26-2008 03:25 PM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
I've got both. Have been using whey protein for a while now, with my zone meals.

Bah, you're right.. I just looked at the nutritional info: 71,5g carbs per 100g, where 1,6g of those are sugar..

Ingredients:
whey protein, [B]maltodextrin, dextrose[/B], creatine monohydrat, fat reduced cocoa powder.

Should I restrain myself from drinking it? I dont think I have a chance drinking a gallon of milk a day. It will probably only be like 1/4 or 1/3 of a gallon..

Steven Low 01-26-2008 03:43 PM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
Weight gainer.. I mean you can use it.. but it's crappy. If your diet has been off of simple/refined sugars for a while it will make you feel horrible. I'd try to stay away from it as much as you can and possibly just chuck the whole thing although it will be a loss in money. (I would say give it away.. but you don't want to give other people something that's horrible for their health either, heh).

David Stout 01-26-2008 04:16 PM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
Agree with Tim & Steven regarding the Weight Gainer. Eat more real food if you need the calories. Otherwise use Milk as Coach Rippetoe suggests. If its the pure volume that's getting you, straight up Whey with the Milk might work for you.

[QUOTE]I think it would be better to start with CF, Krav and boxing and then start adding im SS as his conditioning level increases. Since we really don't know his conditioning at the moment.. it's probably not the best idea to program everything in at once in the beginning. But yeah. Shrug. Gotta learn what works for his body.[/QUOTE]

Disagree with some of this. I agree with being conservative with programming. However, as the athlete has stated his "number one goal at the time is to gain mass and strength."

Given that his numbers other than his Total look decent, and given the above stated goal no other plan is going to put strength and weight on somebody like Coach Rippetoes plan.

Again I'd refer to the quote I posted from Coach Rippetoe.

Steven Low 01-26-2008 11:22 PM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
[quote]Disagree with some of this. I agree with being conservative with programming. However, as the athlete has stated his "number one goal at the time is to gain mass and strength."

Given that his numbers other than his Total look decent, and given the above stated goal no other plan is going to put strength and weight on somebody like Coach Rippetoes plan.

Again I'd refer to the quote I posted from Coach Rippetoe.[/quote]

Didn't actually see that (more or less cause I skimmed the thread -_-). I'd put him on modified SS + krav + boxing then. Krav + boxing will actually be fairly decent conditioning probably so he doesn't need to worry about missing CF much.

Erik Eliassen 01-27-2008 04:20 AM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
Cheers guys. I've actually used the weight gainer for a couple of days now, and I do feel sorta sick. I'll just give it away to some friends that are reckless about their diet. The only thing I now could imagine it working as for me is maybe a post-workout shake? But a zone-shake + milk is probably better anyway.

Oh by the way.
Cleans 3 sets of 5 reps, or 5 sets of 3 reps? It seems it varies a lot what people do here..

Erik Eliassen 01-30-2008 10:22 AM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
Sorry for bumping, but just want to clarify this if you don't mind guys..

3x5 power cleans or 5x3 power cleans?

David Stout 01-30-2008 10:50 AM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
Tim will know for sure, but I think technically Starting Strength has it 3x5, but 5x3 is also programmed as in Practical Programming. Coach Rippetoe has also stated on ************:

[QUOTE]I use 5 sets of 3 cleans, instead of sets of 5, because I don't want technique to deteriorate due to fatigue on a technical lift like a clean or a snatch.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Question: Just to clarify from SS (2nd Ed). Power cleans are done for five sets of three reps. Is this correct?

Response from Coach Rippetoe: I like that pretty well.[/QUOTE]

Tim Donahey 01-30-2008 11:04 AM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
I like 5x3 myself. Could be done either way though, but the shorter sets ensure better technique, especially as the weights get heavier.

Erik Eliassen 01-30-2008 12:13 PM

Re: Best SS + CF hybrid?
 
Thanks guys! I'll go with that then :)


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