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-   -   Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM (https://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=86218)

Jason Donaldson 02-22-2014 08:32 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Would love a copy of Dr Noakes book thanks Lynne and HQ.

My take, having coached numerous endurance athletes from half marathons to the Leadville 100. Gatorade, Powerade and the like are responsible for perpetuating the myth that you need to drink copious amounts of these substances to get through an event. They are not interested in health and fitness, only $$'s. Organisations such as the ACSM and over here, Australian Sports Medicine, really need to be distancing themselves from these businesses if they want to be taken seriously.

Keep your fueling sources separate. Drink water if necessary. Add electrolytes such as Salt Stix as required, eg anything over 90 mins duration.

Alden Hingle 02-23-2014 03:03 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
[QUOTE=Lynne Pitts;1220322]To "sweeten the pot" :D CrossFit has 500 copies of Noakes' book available to give to interested parties; reply in this thread if you would like one. We'll grab your email from the admin side, so you don't need to post your email publicly, and our team will contact you for the rest of your information.
Requests so far - will keep this updated, so hit me if I miss you.

Joshua J Grenell
Chris Cooper
Christopher Morris
Dakota Base
Andy Shirley
Russel K Olofson[/QUOTE]

Lynne - I would like a copy of the book. Thank you!

Russell Greene 02-23-2014 04:56 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Dakota,

Greg did not assert that ACSM/Gatorade are still promoting deadly hyperhydration. You can stop arguing with us about that.

You are correct that ACSM/Gatorade admitted that their previous recommendations were wrong. This does not absolve the ACSM/Gatorade of the deaths and injuries their recommendations caused. Time is no defense. It is certainly no solace for the families of the fallen.

Corporately-funded research is not a problem if the researchers do good, honest science. That was not the case here.

It was commonly believed in 1996 that hyperhydration was healthy and ergogenic. This does not mean that solid evidence supported the belief. You said yourself that simple experimentation with hydration levels shows that the ACSM/Gatorade's previous drinking recommendations do not work. If this was easily accessible to you, a recreational athlete, what took Gatorade/ACSM so long to realize it? Surely, they didn't lack funding. If, as you've noticed, their previous recommendations fail to promote short-term performance, let alone long-term health, what evidence did they have that the recommendations work? Please, send me links.

The best case scenario for the ACSM/Gatorade is that they made billions promoting overhydration, and happened to miss the evidence that heat energy is of inconsequential risk for marathon runners, that the fastest distance runners usually were substantially dehydrated, that their hydration recommendations resulted in dangerously low blood sodium levels, etc. etc.

It was either negligence or fraud. I'm leaning towards the latter.

[QUOTE=Dakota Base;1220500]In the same form of "Coach's" response thread, you've retorted with insulting my intelligence and capacity for understanding.

While deaths from faulty data are tragic, I don't think the format in which you're fighting this "war" is productive, or ethical. Coach's arguement here is passing off that the ACSM/Gatorade are STILL promoting hyperhydration, which just isn't true.

I don't care who does the research, and have no personal interest in Gatorade, Crossfit, Coach, yourself, the ACSM, or any other dog in this fight. What I DO, however, find insulting to the intelligence of these readers, is that you'll come in and propose that the ACSM is guilty of ignoring evidence, when Matt Thomas produced evidence that the ACSM published information A YEAR PRIOR TO DR. NOAKES publication of "Waterlogged" that retracted and updated its previous stance. Comparing the "best information at hand" that a research group published 30yrs ago to "the best information at hand" today, and seeing a discrepancy like this suggests to me that they've made an effort to correct a past mistake.

Sure, maybe I'm not aware of other injustices that the ACSM has made to lie to the public, but this is not one of them. However, you are lying by implying that they ARE intentionally misleading the public into over-drinking.

I don't care which side wins, as long as the true science reaches the people that need it. But for your arguement aimed at taking down Gatorade and dethroning the ACSM, find a new arguement, because the battle of over-hydration recommendations is lost.



There may be (debatably ARE) other things that might cause me to villify the ACSM/Gatorade, but publishing "best information at hand", then retracting it and updating it when new "best information at hand" becomes available, No, I'm not going to hold that agaisnt them.

As I mentioned before, I recognize that products generate revenue, and research costs money, so by default, research will ALWAYS be funded by corporations like Gatorade, that have vested interests in the outcome of testing. If it's not Gatorade, then it'll be one of their competitors. I can say with confidence that it won't be a private, non-profitting organization.[/QUOTE]

Jeff Enge 02-23-2014 05:12 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
So, are you suggesting that CrossFit is going to sue on behalf of the people Gatorade and the ACSM have possibly harmed? Or try to start a Gatorade boycott? Because otherwise I don't see the point.

Matt Thomas 02-23-2014 05:13 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
So again, what is it youre planning to do about these past evils?

Christopher E Bloom 02-23-2014 05:39 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Lynne,
I would definitely be interested in a copy of the book.

Thanks,
Chris

Jesse Phillips 02-23-2014 05:56 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
I would appreciate a copy of the book, if still available. Thanks,
-Jesse

Robert D Taylor Jr 02-23-2014 06:13 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
[QUOTE=Brad Allen Jones;1220444]Despite what many think, intravenous fluids are inferior to oral fluids in terms if hydration...by a lot. Not knocking what you said (although there could be flaws due to the fact that IVs already don't work that well), just wanted to point that out to some who might think IV is better.[/QUOTE]

Doc,

That's different than I was taught (at EMT school, TCCC, and by 18D corpsmen). Where did you get that gouge? HM A school? Was that before or after the Take Motrin, Drink water, Change your socks class? ;)

The way I learned it was:
IV

rectal

drink.

Russell Greene 02-23-2014 06:28 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
I'd like to share this story (W/f safe) of Cynthia Lucero, who followed the 1996 Gatorade/ACSM recommendation to drink "as much as tolerable"

[url]http://www.apnewsarchive.com/2002/Fluid-Cited-in-Marathoner-s-Death/id-424edce6ed89d8adcb14d4d97c0448a3[/url]

"Friends said Lucero drank large amounts of Gatorade and looked well for most of the April 16 race. She later began to falter, then collapsed after telling a friend that she felt dehydrated and rubber-legged. She died later at a hospital."

Barry Stockbrugger 02-23-2014 06:36 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Lynne, would love a copy of "Waterlogged".

I have followed Dr. Noakes battle on this issue in many places for some time. He always provides the backing for his statements. As for the ACSM, they may have come clean on this issue as the evidence piled up, but they continue to make authoritative claims with weak if any science (i.e. "Extreme Conditioning Programs").

Build an argument before making claims. Not make claims then build an argument.

Jeff Enge 02-23-2014 06:37 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
EDIT: Never mind. Apparently I won't get my question answered no matter how it gets asked.

Matt Thomas 02-23-2014 06:38 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Nowhere does it link what she did to the ACSMs guidelines. How do you know she was aware of them at all?

And again what is the point of this? What are you going to do about it?

Russell Greene 02-23-2014 06:49 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
It is clear what the point is. Greg's original post said:

"It's time to drive Big Soda out of fitness and by extension, the health sciences."

If you want to know how we're going to accomplish that, watch. The global CrossFit movement, and the accompanying overhaul of a multi-billion dollar industry, began with a blog post.

Matt Thomas 02-23-2014 06:51 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
I anxiously await the downfall of Gatorade.

I'm more of an iced tea drinker anyways.

Sara Ochsner 02-23-2014 06:57 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Wow :biglaugh:

Luke Sirakos 02-23-2014 08:02 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Blaming Gatorade for over hydration deaths to me is like blaming crossfit for rhabdo deaths.

Andrew N. Casey 02-23-2014 08:50 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
i wonder when we will get the warning about drinking the kool aid?

if i have to choose between kool aid and gatorade i think i will go with gatorade. though, i never really liked gatorade anyway because it isn't zone and it's athletes are all non-elite specialist in leagues like the NBA and NFL.

i wonder if any athletes associated with reebok, espn, rogue, etc are sponsored by gatorade? or any other drinks or supps owned by "big soda"? i wonder if someone sells gatorade at their box if they will lose their affiliation? sometimes i drink chocolate milk post-WOD that is made by Nestle, does Nestle count as big soda? anyway, I anxiously await the coming revolution and can't wait to see what happens next.

Rryan Kingsbury 02-23-2014 09:16 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Interested in a copy of the book please. Thank you.

Andrew Bell 02-23-2014 10:25 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Curious as to if Pedialyte falls into this catagory? For hydration I prefer 16-20oz of that mixed with some BCAAs and glutamine for my drink of choice.

Thoughts?

Got the idea from here....
[url]http://www.completehumanperformance.com/proper-hydration.html[/url] (wfs)

Andy Shirley 02-24-2014 02:10 AM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
With an n=1, and all the weight that carries, pedialyte worked for me. Playing multiple full rugby games at tournaments in hot weather, I used to get terrible cramps(quads, hamstrings, calves, all at once a bit after matches). Pedialyte helped a lot, as did another product, called Gookinaid back then, now rebranded as hydralyte. More lytes, less sugar than Gatorade.

Joey Dussel 02-24-2014 09:40 AM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
This is great! What timing! We were just talking about hydration in my Nutrition for Exercise course at the University and I was finding myself with some really quizzical facial expression while listening to the instructor speak about hydration recommendations. They didn't fit with the science...

Lynne, I'd like to get a copy of that book if possible.

-Joey

Coach 02-24-2014 11:16 AM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
The science of hydration reduces to something wonderfully elegant...drink when you're thirsty and don't when you aren't.

Brian Chontosh 02-24-2014 01:24 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Reading some of these posts compels me to offer some of my own thoughts. I certainly don’t think I can do any harm to this conversation at this point…

Most of what I am reading here is ‘sea lawyer’ information. No insult intended, but when does “my experience” or “I’ve always heard” or “works for me” start to replace research based data, analysis, and subsequent synthesis of information? Let’s call it science for convenience here. What’s even worse is when these pre-positioned comments aren’t included and just some random UNTRUTH follows and is perpetuated over and over. Let’s call this ignorance for convenience here.

I am not discounting anyone’s experiences here. But only when constructive conversation demands that individuals take a step back from thinking what they think they know and start asking serious questions to confirm or deny these thoughts will we get anywhere. Let's stop perpetuating ignorance. So much of the currently reported methods of hydration and salt replacement, electrolyte supplementation etc do in fact resonate with my experiences; both military and ultra endurance. However, I am at least broad enough to realize this doesn’t make them certainties. Nearly everything in Noakes’ claims makes a lot of sense and begs to be considered. Actually, his explanations for the mechanisms of causation vs. relation seem to fit just as well with my experiences, if not more enlightening. How many times in my past have I thought something worked for some created reason and only discover after the fact that it was more a coincidence or favorable side effect of an entirely different mechanism; convenient and coincidental, and thus decided to be regulated as personal fact? My point simply is asking to elevate yourself from your anecdotal definitives and get informed. Ask some questions and entertain critical thought analysis.

I agree with Dakota for sure --- in part. We can only hold the medical community and science accountable for what they should reasonably know as truth given the best information at hand and given the current state of events. When the world was flat and the sun revolved around the earth examples to argue this point acceptable. But here is my rub. Why the reluctance to recalculate the truth when compounding evidence begs for the question to be reconsidered? After pouring through Noakes’ book for 2 months; cross referencing citation and supporting studies, it baffles me why my average intelligence (no pretending or confusion about my station here) can see that some rudder steers should have been made much sooner during this course. Why wasn’t it? Several times in his book it is acknowledged that the ACSM has modified their language, albeit softly & craftily, and amended it’s recommendations. Even specific credit of such is given starting on pp329. (I will digress here and correct your comments regarding Matt Thomas. Congratulations to him for sure, but 1 year prior to the publication of a book is still over a decade after research was concluded and communications commenced). Now I don’t like admitting my faults any more than the next guy, but wouldn’t you think the Moral Obligation of an embodying organization responsible to the health of humans be compelled to have a touch less dragging of the feet? Shouldn’t we expect that out of them? If the British Journal of Sports Medicine, IMMDA and the USATF seem to find the ability to make swift corrections 3-5 years before the ACSM, wouldn’t that cause curiosity? Especially when effects were very favorable. If the ever cumbersome US Army and all of her behemoth bureaucratic procedures can recognize issue and make swift changes nearly 12 years sooner than an American College dedicated to Sports Medicine can, then WTF?

In my opinion Dakota you don’t necessarily have a dog in the fight or a true care since you have it figured out already. Or the issue doesn’t resonate at home as you so stated. This is surely fair. But, I call it fence sitting and a very comfortable place to offer thoughts and basic opinion. It does then beg you to ask serious questions, to get even more informed, or to sit and watch like a sheep. No making muddy of the waters. You used tobacco industry as an analogy so I’ll offer driving: What if I was a motorist in a 55, going downhill, windows up or down is your call. I’m obeying the speed limit and coming around the curve into a “school zone ahead” sign. I let off the gas, allowing my momentum to gradually reduce my speed to 43mph in the 25 and I’m still coasting/slowing down. I get flashed and pulled over to where I can begin to offer any number of BS at hand rationalizations. Might seem trite to you until it was your son in the crosswalk during my transgression. Now who do you want sponsoring traffic court? Moral Obligation and our Judicial System or GEICO? My bet is Bob and Diane Allen are looking for the former and not the GSSI.

The point is that new information at hand should have caused an immediate correction to at least error on the side of caution until further confirmation could occur. This would be consistent with the behavior of some one or some entity I expect/trust to preside in a capacity of authority. If consistency is a measure of integrity – then why didn’t this occur with the ACSM? Certainly they were not encumbered to change the hydration rules immediately and drastically at the front side of this issue back during the mid 70s? And ironically, there was less factual evidence at that moment pointing to a necessity for increased hydration, yet the modifications came mighty swift. Basically, you are defending the motorist who likes to accelerate to reach 55mph before he reaches the sign post despite still being in the school zone. It is called conflict of personal interest vs. greater responsibility.

I’m asking questions. I’m churning through research. And an awful lot of information is giving greater meaning to my experiences and what I thought was fact. Making comments about IVs vs. Bottled water, BCAAs and Taste, Pedialyte and Cramps all ignorant, juvenile, and pedestrian.

My suspicion is that there is a tremendous amount of financial leverage in play regarding research funding that is causing friction resisting what is just. The greater good is not served here. Dilute the authority/perceived stature/influence of the ACSM so that it reconciles what it truly is – an interest influenced and financed commodity - or remove the interest. Either way…

Sara Ochsner 02-24-2014 01:29 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Interesting first post Brian.

Brian Chontosh 02-24-2014 01:53 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
I don't like to post, never felt compelled to share my thoughts or put myself out there. I typically read and have discussion with personal contacts I trust and respect. But this has been on my mind for a while and I'm feeling pretty passionate about it so will take a chance. Plus, I feel I have put respectable amount of time researching and can refrain from making uninformed statements.

I only promise to be courteous, honest, and authentic in my comments. I never will promise to be absolute, correct or all knowing. Your observation and comment of my first post leaves a lot to be interpreted in any direction.

This thread simply begged to be elevated to more critical thought and conversation.

Sara Ochsner 02-24-2014 02:00 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
That was all fairly evident Brian. That is why it is interesting.

Coach 02-24-2014 03:00 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Let me recap CF Inc's position on and interest in this matter:

GSSI/Gatorade/ACSM scientists, all paid by Gatorade Inc., undertook a protracted and effective debasement of thermoregulatory science as a necessary step to debasing hydration science in support of new hydration guidelines that profited Gatorade Inc and resulted in at least a dozen deaths and serious injury to thousands.

Getting the science corrected took decades with GSSI/Gatorade/ACSM scientists fighting the correction the entire time. Even the GSSI/Gatorade/ACSM retreat from the deadly guidelines was conducted in an unconscionable manner that would support a product liability suit nicely.

I came to this understanding of the purchased bad science and surrounding intrigue only after hundreds of hours of reading much of the peer reviewed literature surrounding EAH, EAHE, AND peer reviewed literature published on the failings academic and moral of Gatorade in addition to extensive discussions for more than six months now with others professionally involved with the issues.

CF Inc's chief scientist's notes on this matter numbers over 600 pages taken from a careful reading of 206 technical papers. His conclusion is that the ACSM's behavior was "highly unethical resulting in deaths". He will tell you that this corruption continues to this day. He will be posting here shortly.

In case anyone wondered, it was academics in Sports Medicine and Exercise Science from the US, New Zealand, and South Africa that initially alerted me to Gatorade's perversion of sports science and medicine via the ACSM.

I believe that Gatorade and the ACSM killed people by faking science to sell product. I believe we can convince any thinking people of that anywhere we're given a chance to do so. I also believe it's my professional and personal obligation to bring this information first to my community and then the world.

Jeff Enge 02-24-2014 03:33 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Why all this righteous indignation about overhydration? Why not use the clout you feel CrossFit has to go after something that is assuredly harming more people, say like alcohol or tobacco? Because every industry's research is funded by the entities that make money off of it, you haven't found something unique in its apparent insidiousness. That's just how bureaucuracy works. It's one of those double edged swords of capitalism.

Jeff Enge 02-24-2014 03:40 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
And if you want to look at the fitness industry only, how about supplement companies that have no regulation and put all manner of ineffective and even dangerous crap in their products, much of it unlisted in ingredient labels. That seems more dangerous to me.

Dale F. Saran 02-24-2014 06:57 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Matt - when your friends tell you they're going to raise money for cerebral palsy, are you the kind of guy who tells them it's stupid and asks why they're not raising money for cancer? I'm genuinely curious because that's your position, and Jeff's, too. Do you have anything constructive to add or do you plan on bringing up all of the other causes we should be addressing - in your mind - as more "worthy" of our efforts?

Dale F. Saran 02-24-2014 06:58 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Crap - never mind. At some point in a thousand posts if you've never once added to the collective efforts there's only one conclusion: trolling.

Sara Ochsner 02-24-2014 07:28 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Not trolls. They have helped numerous people here on the CF forum. Shame that playing devils advocate led to banning.

Coach 02-24-2014 07:30 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Tobacco and alcohol are widely known hazards - especially to what is, for the most part, our community here, with very few exceptions. Those industries are making no public claims regarding health of which I'm aware and do not intersect with the fitness space.

This community has formed in large part around those who instinctively rejected the message and marketing of supplement companies a long time ago.

The ACSM portrays itself as an independent scientific body protecting athletes while advancing sports science. The truth is radically different and their target audience is very close to ours in terms of education and intellect.

I'm not looking to regulate anything. I think tort law and public education - especially leading with the CF community - can do what needs to be done here. Government will make almost any problem worse and not better. I'd expect government to collude with the worst of the free market and protect nothing but government and its cronies.

Ours is a top down approach to almost every issue. We speak first and clearly to the smart people, convince them of the truth and only the truth wherever we see it regardless of how that may unfold. Those people will filter down to the rest. Were it not for that sense of things there'd be no CF and most everyone here would be doing what they did before CF.

Clint Harris 02-24-2014 09:16 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
I'm probably in the boat of needing a few smart people to first digest and the disseminate this info to me so that I can understand or ignore this. I assume it's a little more than Powerade is now better than Gatorade.

However, what's the correlation between increased deaths/injuries through over hydration; and the increased participation of ultra-runs, marathons, 5ks, and even CrossFit, along with all this information (myth, fact, other) being available to anyone who wants it inside of a few seconds?

So a soda company sponsored a study to drink more fluids, preferably their own brand I'm sure. But I'm curious, can all of these deaths and injuries be directly attributed to that study or simply drinking gatorade or more fluids ?

On the flip side, without those big soda sponsor $$ we wouldn't have many of these events, races and runs to participate in or even things to watch and enjoy. What are we going to do?
What happens if/when Reebok release a study saying their easy tones promote a nice butt. Yet someone determines that the increased usage of these shoes also resulted in an increase in injuries while doing box jumps? Will CrossFit terminate that relationship immediately ?

I'm also baffled as to why those few people were banned. Was that really from this thread ? That's asinine based on those posts. Go back and look at their past post records.
I think the CrossFit staff need to evaluate their own emotions before tapping these little keys in front of them. Clearly, those users were not trolling.

Dale F. Saran 02-24-2014 11:56 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Clint - have you read any of "Waterlogged?" Did you read the post right above yours? Is it your contention that Dr. Noakes is making up the record of what happened? It played out entirely in the public forum of the British Journal of Sports Medicine, with Dr's Noakes and Speedy making the case, repeatedly, that the ACSM hydration guidelines would kill people, particularly small women. Voila! They did. All along the ACSM kept saying that the "science" proved that one needed to consume copious amounts of fluids - preferably of the kind made by their platinum sponsor, Gatorade - also the creators of the "Gatorade Sports Science Institute." (Have you never seen those commercials with the Keith Jackson voiceover claiming the miraculous benefits of Gatorade? Really? They played for years in prime time spots during college football games. I don't know your age, but I can remember them distinctly. Even recently, you haven't seen the "G formula" series of Gatorade, the commercials with Tiger Woods, the "pre-workout" sugary beverage, the "performance fuel" or whatever it's called, and the "post workout" G "formula?"

Back then, Gatorade was supposed to prevent heatstroke (now it enhances performance). But even AFTER the ACSM finally backpedaled - in the face of a dozen deaths - they wrote an editorial [B]still[/B] claiming that we wouldn't know the untold numbers of people who had been saved from serious injury due to heatstroke. If you haven't read that record, go do that - then come back and tell me you believe it was all (a) a misunderstanding, and/or (b) had nothing to do with the largest donor to ACSM's "non-profit" coffers.

Dale F. Saran 02-24-2014 11:58 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Then factor this: look at how the South Africans and Kiwis instantly fixed the problem. They removed a ton of those Gatorade stations at major marathons. They set guidelines that wouldn't allow the placement of those stations more often than every 5K (IIRC on the distance, I'm going from memory at the moment). Poof - EAH problem solved. A looonnnnngg time before ACSM was willing to let go of its claim. Years. Many years - and thousands of people still left to be injured as it turns out (and a few more killed).

I don't know how many marathons you've run, but I did 3 in college and a fourth less than 10 years ago. At all of them you can't go too much more than a mile without seeing ubiquitous orange colored tents and Gatorade being served (or its equivalent). That's on ACSM for telling everyone that they had the 'science' to prove that was needed - all while they were getting their salaries paid by Gatorade.

At a minimum, doesn't it beg the question of WHY they wouldn't at least tell everyone while they were publishing articles under the guise of advancing science that their research was paid for by the very product they were recommending to drink in mass quantities? Wouldn't that kind of conflict of interest at least be necessary, if they were truly in the pursuit of scientific knowledge?

I don't know how anyone could read those papers and the back and forth by Dr. Noakes and the ACSM fellows defending their 'research' and simultaneously attacking Noakes and Speedy, and conclude anything other than that the ACSM was either (a) willfully promoting, then defending junk science for profit, or (b) so grossly incompetent that it would call into question the qualifications of anyone who had been advocating the way they had... (and coincidentally they were making money from the unintended beneficiary of their ignorance, who also happened to be their largest donor.)

Coach 02-25-2014 03:07 AM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Sara, they may "have helped numerous people here on the CF forum", and now they're helping everyone.

"Playing devils advocate" carries with it the risk of appearing insincere or stupid, and whereas being stupid cannot get you banned, making me work constantly to figure out which you are afflicted with eventually will. Intelligent skepticism and more thoughtful inquiry would have served them better were their aims to serve the community, add to the conversation, and remain here.

It's best to use "devil's advocacy" in sincere and meaningful interaction sparingly, like raising one's voice, or dramatic pause in oratory. At the point that the devil's advocacy becomes knee-jerk or incessant, it's time to rock your own FB page.

There's another component to their removal, and that's impugning our motives and their tone. This isn't the corner of Main Street and Elm, it's my living room. There's little I wouldn't do for those that post here and much that I'd expect of them in return.

This would be a great time to thank everyone here engaged in meaningful and sincere interaction. Our commitment to serving this community is why I get up in the morning, and the middle of the night.

Sara Ochsner 02-25-2014 06:24 AM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
My apologies, I was addressing Dale in my last comment. It is plain to see why you wouldn't want a-holes in your community.

Joey Dussel 02-25-2014 08:50 AM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Saying CF should go after tobacco or alcohol rather than Gatorade & ACSM relationship is a whacky comparison..those don't have any doctors or scientists purporting health benefits...anymore! I may be young but I've heard of / seen the old-timey cigarette ads with doctors on them. I'd be surprised if big tobacco companies [B]didn't[/B] pay for scientific studies that supported smoking at the time!

Look what we (as a nation / people / organization--you choose the term) have done with that? We followed the science, changed our stance and changed the rules and recommendations. To me, seems like Coach Glassman is just starting that conversation here.

RECAP:
For Comparison only:
Big Tobacco pays for studies that find cigarettes are healthy, health professionals (doctors, etc) fall for it, people die, we change as we learn the truth.

(Maybe, in my mind TBD as of yet) Gatorade pays for studies that find hydration levels that are "healthy", health professionals (doctors, trainers, nutritionists, etc) fall for it, people die (albeit not as many as cigarettes), we change our position as we learn the truth.

-Joey

Christopher Morris 02-25-2014 09:35 AM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Dale,
Thank you for those last two posts. The timeline you present is insightful as to who knew what and when. That has clarified why CrossFit HQ wants to take this issue head-on so aggressively.

You mentioned an ACSM editorial about heatstroke prevention. I couldn't find it with a few searches online. Do you have a link or reference for it?


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