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-   -   Final games thoughts (https://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=69139)

Andrew Bell 09-12-2011 08:42 AM

Re: Final games thoughts
 
[QUOTE=Zach Reed;984111]haha you would wayne.

Instead of keeping up my patented paleo+calories diet, maybe I should give Paleo+PEDs a shot since Robb W. didn't seem to have a problem with it and see what we can turn me into.[/QUOTE]

20mg of Anavar a day does amazing things I hear. :highfive:

Zach Reed 09-12-2011 08:57 AM

Re: Final games thoughts
 
[QUOTE=Michael Kelley;984474]Flouride in the water and eye surgery doesn't make you trade your health for performance. As for vitamins and supplements, many of them are also banned from sports because of the health problems associated with using them (hydroxycut, etc...). The things you list don't weaken your immune system, damage adrenal glands, weaken bone structure, and do the host of other things that anabolic steroids do to trash the body. As I mentioned earlier, I think that HGH should be studied. It seems to have potential for certain health benefits as well as performance benefits. It might one day be useful as a widespread medical tool. If it is shown to be safe and effective, it can be revisited. Until then, it is quite clear that using these chemicals is absolutely cheating in competition.[/QUOTE]

But is it still cheating if the performance enhancing substance used is not (yet) banned?

I think it's extremely plausible, and in all reality true for at least one case, that there are multiple substances out there that are still unknown by the organizations in charge of testing athletes, or that they have yet to even come close to developing a testing procedure that can accurately identify the substance(s) in an athletes body.

Wayne Reeder 09-12-2011 10:25 AM

Re: Final games thoughts
 
[QUOTE=Michael Kelley;984474]The things you list don't weaken your immune system, damage adrenal glands, weaken bone structure, and do the host of other things that anabolic steroids do to trash the body.[/QUOTE]

You can replace anabolic steroids with under eating and doing intense cardio or CrossFit 5-7 days a week. This is called overtraining and is backed by scientific and anecdotal evidence.

Does this mean CrossFit is as dangerous as PEDs? I'd say they are equally dangerous if you don't do your homework (that goes for CF as well).

If you look up "The Man Whose Arms Exploded," and read into Greg Valentino's story. You will find that he was doing 3 grams of test plus 500 mg of other stuff straight into his biceps and blew up a blood vessel. If you put the same volume of saline into a blood vessel it would do the same thing. Just as a note, from the little reading about the subject I've done, that is 6x+ the standard dose for systemic growth.

Coming from a biomedical engineering background. If steroids were as potent as thought by the general public we would probably be 10+ years more advanced in regenerative medicine. Rhabdo could be instantly cured by a simple shot in the butt to prevent the further breakdown of muscle tissue. Muscular dystrophy could be easily treated. And a whole host of other degenerative muscular diseases could be easily cured or prevented.

Andrew Bell 09-12-2011 11:19 AM

Re: Final games thoughts
 
[QUOTE=Wayne Reeder;984547]Coming from a biomedical engineering background. If steroids were as potent as thought by the general public we would probably be 10+ years more advanced in regenerative medicine. Rhabdo could be instantly cured by a simple shot in the butt to prevent the further breakdown of muscle tissue. Muscular dystrophy could be easily treated. And a whole host of other degenerative muscular diseases could be easily cured or prevented.[/QUOTE]

I've heard similar type statements and all we can do is thank the media for wanting a scapegoat.

Matt Haxmeier 09-12-2011 11:22 AM

Re: Final games thoughts
 
[QUOTE=Michael Kelley;984474]Flouride in the water and eye surgery doesn't make you trade your health for performance. As for vitamins and supplements, many of them are also banned from sports because of the health problems associated with using them (hydroxycut, etc...). The things you list don't weaken your immune system, damage adrenal glands, weaken bone structure, and do the host of other things that anabolic steroids do to trash the body. As I mentioned earlier, I think that HGH should be studied. It seems to have potential for certain health benefits as well as performance benefits. It might one day be useful as a widespread medical tool. If it is shown to be safe and effective, it can be revisited. Until then, it is quite clear that using these chemicals is absolutely cheating in competition.[/QUOTE]

They don't ban PED's from competition because they are bad for you. They ban them because they enhance performance. Probably every single banned drug has some sort of health benefit/medically accepted use. Heck, even my asthma medicine is on the list of PED's. (and caffeine) Really, even Cocaine and Meth can both be prescribed by doctors (but not Marijuana lol). So it's not the drug that's bad, it's the dosage/usage/abuse.

My main complaint about PED's is that it pretty much does make using them a requirement to compete. And as long as they are illegal then part of that inequality is who's willing to risk breaking the law & facing the penalties to train/compete.

Vickie Ellickson 09-12-2011 12:15 PM

Re: Final games thoughts
 
I've always been very anti-PEDs. However, there are many excellent posts on here in support (sortof) of PEDs that I have a difficult time refuting.

I respect the opinion that we're selective in the genetics we find it acceptable to improve, but I don't think it's a valid argument for PEDs. Eye-glasses are used b/c the individual has a deficiency. My glasses don't give me x-ray vision.

PEDs (typically) aren't used to correct deficiencies, they are used to enhance physical properties that have NOTHING wrong with them. It seems like people who take PEDs are already working their asses off trying to achieve a physical goal and are using the PEDs as a boost.

Adam Carlson 09-12-2011 05:31 PM

Re: Final games thoughts
 
Vickie - you state a good point that needs to be reiterated again:

'It seems like people who take PEDs are already working their asses off trying to achieve a physical goal are are using the PEDs as a boost.'

Just so we're all clear, one shot of HGH or anabolic steroids aren't going to pull off a 'Captain America' - you don't go from being a skinny, underdeveloped non-athlete into a ripped and talented athlete.

Anyway, Michael, can you find data to back up your statements on the harm of using PEDs in a controlled manner? Not in the abuse + stupid training category, but in the way that has been shown time and again to be effective yet safe? While you're at it, can you take a look and see how people are prescribed anabolic steroids to help with medical issues (and not in the performance/appearance issue category)?

It seems that you've made up your mind before even really looking in to the details. As I've said, I am not interested in using PEDs for myself, and I believe that the rules of whatever sport should be followed (so if they ban them, don't use them), but I don't believe that they are as destructive and dangerous as you seem to think that they are. If they were that dangerous AND had immediate negative consequences to the extent that many believe, why are so many people using them (and without problems), and why don't we have more muscles tearing outside of the body as your story describes?

Michael Kelley 09-12-2011 07:56 PM

Re: Final games thoughts
 
[QUOTE=Matt Haxmeier;984577]They don't ban PED's from competition because they are bad for you. They ban them because they enhance performance. Probably every single banned drug has some sort of health benefit/medically accepted use. Heck, even my asthma medicine is on the list of PED's. (and caffeine) Really, even Cocaine and Meth can both be prescribed by doctors (but not Marijuana lol). So it's not the drug that's bad, it's the dosage/usage/abuse.

My main complaint about PED's is that it pretty much does make using them a requirement to compete. And as long as they are illegal then part of that inequality is who's willing to risk breaking the law & facing the penalties to train/compete.[/QUOTE]

Well said. If they did not cause so much harm in addition to performance gains, this wouldn't be an issue. But they do cause harm, so it is a problem if they become a de facto requirement.

[QUOTE=Adam Carlson;984710]Vickie - you state a good point that needs to be reiterated again:

'It seems like people who take PEDs are already working their asses off trying to achieve a physical goal are are using the PEDs as a boost.'

Just so we're all clear, one shot of HGH or anabolic steroids aren't going to pull off a 'Captain America' - you don't go from being a skinny, underdeveloped non-athlete into a ripped and talented athlete.

Anyway, Michael, can you find data to back up your statements on the harm of using PEDs in a controlled manner? Not in the abuse + stupid training category, but in the way that has been shown time and again to be effective yet safe? While you're at it, can you take a look and see how people are prescribed anabolic steroids to help with medical issues (and not in the performance/appearance issue category)?

It seems that you've made up your mind before even really looking in to the details. As I've said, I am not interested in using PEDs for myself, and I believe that the rules of whatever sport should be followed (so if they ban them, don't use them), but I don't believe that they are as destructive and dangerous as you seem to think that they are. If they were that dangerous AND had immediate negative consequences to the extent that many believe, why are so many people using them (and without problems), and why don't we have more muscles tearing outside of the body as your story describes?[/QUOTE]

I'm aware of their use in treatment for dwarfism and the like. No, I don't think every user has muscles rip from their supporting tissue. No, I don't think one shot both turns someone into a beast and trashes their body, just as one snort of coke doesn't make someone into a degenerate, gutter dwelling bum. No, I am not going to go write a paper on it, especially given the overwhelming information that supports the facts that steroids eventually break your body as much as build it. Frankly, the weight of evidence is on the side of the argument I've taken. How about you find some double blind, placebo controlled prospective studies of otherwise healthy athletes who used anabolic steroids for an extended period of time who have felt no negative effects. I suspect there aren't any to be found.

Adam Carlson 09-13-2011 04:04 AM

Re: Final games thoughts
 
There probably aren't any studies done at the moment, since anabolic steroids and other PEDs haven't been around long enough for people to see the 5, 10, 25, 50 year results of continued use.

'The evidence' needs to be presented on your side of the argument as well, and to be shown that it has been done in an actual, legit scientific procedure. A lot of the 'evidence' that has been brought up come from questionable tests and anecdotes. What you have for sure is the government and law's backing of your argument ;)

Scott Jenkins 09-13-2011 06:20 AM

Re: Final games thoughts
 
I generally do not believe steroids would help an athlete do 'Overall' better at the CF Games. Yes they would help you train for a bigger squat or deadlift but as far as helping with the average metcon, I dont believe so. Also I have trained at a few bodybuilding gyms and you get to know the 'Look' of someone who is using, the footage I have seen so far of the CF Games show none of the athletes with this look.


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