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-   -   theory on cardio endurance & muscular endurance (https://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=45103)

Scott Spencer 04-07-2009 02:21 PM

theory on cardio endurance & muscular endurance
 
Here is a little idea i had running through my head. CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance (CFE) work to produce good runners by having them only do short sprints and very few long runs. this works the fast twitch fibers and builds strength. When lower intensity runs are done for a longer time, although not practiced often, the athletes improve in them. The reasons why this workouts and why not to over do LSD training is covered in the Journel and CFE site.

I ran across a simular theory about improving your chin ups. I guess CF would agree with this. The theory is that instead of trying to do more and more reps, try to do weighted chin ups and just get stronger in the 5 rep range. If you can get really strong at 5 reps, 20 reps with no weight will feel like a breeze. Same thing with running. Strengthening with sprints will make light jogging feel easy.

I heard this theory about improving Chin ups from Pavel. Might be in one of his books. i got several of them. But i take it would also work with other body weight/muscular endurance type training. Its common knowledge that just doing hundreds of push ups a day wont increase your max bench press. but doing max bench press, with infrequent usuage of say Tabata push ups, will increase your max push ups. Simular to CFE improving long distance with just interval training.

I guess i knew this but i just had an ephiphany about it. i did a contest this weekend and got 22 deadhang chin ups. [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6Gq4nc1EfI"]video[/URL] (wfs) I was thinking that trying to do more and more chin ups might just be tapping into endurance fibers and i would be better off doing weighted or some kind of explosive movement. I guess i could GTG with weighted chins or make it part of a CFSB once a week. See if i can get my 50 pound chin ups up to about 10. Then that should add 5 or more reps to my 22 chins.

thoughts? Comments? Recipes for Quiche?

Shane Skowron 04-07-2009 02:56 PM

Re: theory on cardio endurance & muscular endurance
 
Yes, that's pretty much true. Strength increases the capacity for endurance.

Who's more likely to win a "lift this heavy object over your head as many times as possible in 40 minutes" competition: a guy who is ridiculously strong overhead, or a guy who has good arm endurance (whatever what means). It's going to be the first guy. He is stronger, therefore he fatigues slower at heavy weights, and therefore higher total output.

Skylar Cook 04-07-2009 03:42 PM

Re: theory on cardio endurance & muscular endurance
 
Strength increases [I]capacity[/I] for endurance, yes. But doesn't directly increase it, i.e. you're not going to get amazing endurance without training at higher reps/longer distances.

Steven Low 04-07-2009 03:58 PM

Re: theory on cardio endurance & muscular endurance
 
Errr....

the muscles/CNS and metabolic pathways function a bit differently from each other.


1. heavy weighted pullups + endurance pullups = high endurance potential (more muscle) + realizing that potential with endurance work. High strength tends to lend to "endurance" at lower weights obviously enough.

2. Metabolically, high intensity work especially longer than a couple minutes in duration strongly depletes glycogen pathways and strongly taxes oxidative.

This is the reason why you can run longer at low intensity when you do HIIT. Not because of the strength increases and fast twitch fibers.... fast twitch tire quickly anyway. Sure, they make some difference, but the vast majority of the improvement is metabolically, not muscular/CNS-wise.


These are definitely not the same thing. Don't confuse them.

CNS + muscular [B]versus[/B] cardio (O2 blood flow) + muscle [U]metabolic[/U] endurance

P.S. They are similar in some respects as you noted, but different in others as I tried to explain in how they work.

Scott Spencer 04-07-2009 07:25 PM

Re: theory on cardio endurance & muscular endurance
 
[QUOTE=Skylar Cook;560961]Strength increases [I]capacity[/I] for endurance, yes. But doesn't directly increase it, i.e. you're not going to get amazing endurance without training at higher reps/longer distances.[/QUOTE]

true. thats why i mentioned the infrequent use of Tabatas with push ups for an example. but not the traditional way of high rep push ups all the time or or as the only way to train for muscular endurance. Mark whats-his-face from gymjones mentioned that tabata improvement can be seen in as little as twice a month practice of the protocal.

Steve,
Thanks for the advice. I see what you are saying. kinda

Phillip Garrison 04-08-2009 11:11 AM

Re: theory on cardio endurance & muscular endurance
 
[QUOTE=Steven Low;560975]Errr....

the muscles/CNS and metabolic pathways function a bit differently from each other.


1. heavy weighted pullups + endurance pullups = high endurance potential (more muscle) + realizing that potential with endurance work. High strength tends to lend to "endurance" at lower weights obviously enough.

2. Metabolically, high intensity work especially longer than a couple minutes in duration strongly depletes glycogen pathways and strongly taxes oxidative.

This is the reason why you can run longer at low intensity when you do HIIT. Not because of the strength increases and fast twitch fibers.... fast twitch tire quickly anyway. Sure, they make some difference, but the vast majority of the improvement is metabolically, not muscular/CNS-wise.


These are definitely not the same thing. Don't confuse them.

CNS + muscular [B]versus[/B] cardio (O2 blood flow) + muscle [U]metabolic[/U] endurance

P.S. They are similar in some respects as you noted, but different in others as I tried to explain in how they work.[/QUOTE]

Bingo!!


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