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-   -   T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit (https://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=38880)

Chris Walls 11-19-2008 02:53 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Phillip Garrisonq;450793]Sure they work for me, so long as we measure O2 consumption and force production at some point.[/QUOTE]

Why do you have to measure O2 consumption if you can show improvements in aerobic and anaerobic capacity? Force production, does not a 1RM effort show this? Maybe not in the terms you're used to, but seriously, why aren't these enough? (genuinely curious here....) And don't just say "because that's how these things have always been measured" because I won't accept that as a valid reason for me. That'd be up there with using "I was drunk" as an excuse for anything.

Phillip Garrison 11-19-2008 02:54 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Tim Donahey;450748]You're right... it's kinda a dumb argument on my part. When I think of "Crossfit," though, I think of the WOD. But that is not everybodys, or even most people's, definition. Yes, the goals of GG Hybrid are the same as the goals of Crossfit. I think there is a line to be drawn in the sand though, but I don't really care where it is... we're all just trying to enjoy the beach.[/QUOTE]


When I think of CF I think of broadly inclusive fitness, which is a different definition for everyone. For some it's being a better climber, for some a better SWAT officer, for some it's looking better in a bathing suit. Use it for what you need.

Phillip Garrison 11-19-2008 03:02 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Chris Walls;450798]Why do you have to measure O2 consumption if you can show improvements in aerobic and anaerobic capacity? Force production, does not a 1RM effort show this? Maybe not in the terms you're used to, but seriously, why aren't these enough? (genuinely curious here....) And don't just say "because that's how these things have always been measured" because I won't accept that as a valid reason for me. That'd be up there with using "I was drunk" as an excuse for anything.[/QUOTE]

Well improvements in time for a 5k, 10k, etc are due to many factors including VO2. Also by measuring consumption and exhalation we can determine Respiratory Quotients at various levels.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_quotient[/url]

By knowing this we can tell when the athlete has transitioned from anaerobic to aerobic systems, lactate thresholds, the type of fuel consumed etc. From this type of data we can tweak and fine tune a CF protocol to fit the needs of the athletes doing it, since not everyone does CF for the exact same reasons.

1RM and force production are related, but they are not exactly interchangeable again due to many factors. For example two people with exact peak force production (FP) could have different back sqaut 1 RM's and different rates of force production (RFP). A study that just came out showed that doing ballistic training increase peak power (PP) and RFP, but did not show an increase in FP or 1RM. Doing tests like this can show exactly where strength and performance increments are being made, and this data can be incorporated into adjusting a program to improve the needs of your athletes.

George Noble 11-19-2008 03:06 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Thanks for the good posts Robb.

Chris Walls 11-19-2008 03:07 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Phillip Garrisonq;450806]Well improvements in time for a 5k, 10k, ... adjusting a program to improve the needs of your athletes.[/QUOTE]


So how would one go about setting up this kind of testing for "normal" programs? Like how has it been done in the past to other programs.

Phillip Garrison 11-19-2008 03:15 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Chris Walls;450813]So how would one go about setting up this kind of testing for "normal" programs? Like how has it been done in the past to other programs.[/QUOTE]

Well you could use heart rate monitors to calculate between aerobic and lactate systems. Certain hr zones correlate to certain systems and RQ's ( we know this based on studies). There are also portbale gas masks athletes can wear which will measure O2/CO2 ratios pretty cheap and easily. Also you can use metabolic urine and blood strips strips immediately after exercise to determine current fuel usage states.

Sean Dunston 11-19-2008 03:17 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Phillip Garrisonq;450824]Well you could use heart rate monitors to calculate between aerobic and lactate systems. Certain hr zones correlate to certain systems and RQ's ( we know this based on studies). There are also portbale gas masks athletes can wear which will measure O2/CO2 ratios pretty cheap and easily. Also you can use metabolic urine and blood strips strips immediately after exercise to determine current fuel usage states.[/QUOTE]

Are these measurements going to tell my whether isolation movements on machines at the Local Globo are more or less effective at increasing my 1RM lifts vs multi-joint movements as used in CF Affiliates?

Matthew Stafford 11-19-2008 03:22 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
What's with the anti-science sentiment?

Robert D Taylor Jr 11-19-2008 03:23 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Wouldn't measureable increases in speed strength power and endurance be just as valid as increased VO2? It seems that you're stuck on the science and everyone is trying to say but look over here, this stuff is working. Most FF that you train are going to care about the science more than the result I'll bet.
Those results show up in workout logs and the comments section all over this site. I recognise there are limits to this as a research tool, but every other method suggested has been as limited, so here we are.

Chris Walls 11-19-2008 03:24 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Phillip Garrisonq;450824]Well you could use heart rate monitors to calculate between aerobic and lactate systems. Certain hr zones correlate to certain systems and RQ's ( we know this based on studies). There are also portbale gas masks athletes can wear which will measure O2/CO2 ratios pretty cheap and easily. Also you can use metabolic urine and blood strips strips immediately after exercise to determine current fuel usage states.[/QUOTE]

The whole heart rate thing doesn't really sit well with me as it's not a hard and fast rule, hence the whole BS "fat burning" zone for heart rate. It's so individual for what your max HR etc actually is...

But lets just say I strap an HR monitor on my athletes here, put the mask on them, have them pee on the sticks and do the blood strip test (like a fingerprick diabetic test?)

How many people would we need? What types of age groups? Trained, or untrained? new to CF or been at it a while? How long does this go on and do we test every workout or just at specific intervals?

Phillip Garrison 11-19-2008 03:24 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Sean Dunston;450828]Are these measurements going to tell my whether isolation movements on machines at the Local Globo are more or less effective at increasing my 1RM lifts vs multi-joint movements as used in CF Affiliates?[/QUOTE]

Yes. If you have two groups of people in a study

Group A does leg extensions

Group B does barbell step ups

After 6 weeks, both groups will have increased leg extension strength on a dynanometer, but only the steup up group will have increase RFP, FP, and increased ability to climb stairs.

Phillip Garrison 11-19-2008 03:33 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Robert D Taylor Jr;450834]Wouldn't measureable increases in speed strength power and endurance be just as valid as increased VO2? It seems that you're stuck on the science and everyone is trying to say but look over here, this stuff is working. Most FF that you train are going to care about the science more than the result I'll bet.
Those results show up in workout logs and the comments section all over this site. I recognise there are limits to this as a research tool, but every other method suggested has been as limited, so here we are.[/QUOTE]


Results is what it's all about. The science is done to fine tune the results and figure out exactly where the results are coming from and why. This is how sports performance works.

Protocols and theories are tried in the gym, results are recorded, studies are then done to find out who, how, where, and when. From this research the protocols are modified as the data shows what works best, what doesn't and why. Then the practioners use the new model, results are recorded, and then studied again. It's an ongoing never ending "fine tuning" process that leads to greater improvement and achievement. If you don't think this model works, ask anyone who cometed against the Soviet Union in athletics

Chris Walls 11-19-2008 03:36 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
But it's that type of nitpicking that got us into the whole nautilus/isolation/machine world we live in now. It's also what took us away from whole foods and into isolated nutrient supplements to make it possible to survive on fake crappy food. By finding something that seems the be the "it" on why it's effective, extracting it in a lab and banking on "it" being all we need.

Robert D Taylor Jr 11-19-2008 03:36 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
So all we need to do is get a scientist or two to check out the results that are available and we're good. Who do you suggest?

Phillip Garrison 11-19-2008 03:36 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Chris Walls;450835]The whole heart rate thing doesn't really sit well with me as it's not a hard and fast rule, hence the whole BS "fat burning" zone for heart rate. It's so individual for what your max HR etc actually is...

But lets just say I strap an HR monitor on my athletes here, put the mask on them, have them pee on the sticks and do the blood strip test (like a fingerprick diabetic test?)

How many people would we need? What types of age groups? Trained, or untrained? new to CF or been at it a while? How long does this go on and do we test every workout or just at specific intervals?[/QUOTE]

There is nothing BS about the "fat burning zone" at certain percentages of MHR your primary fuel source will be fat, then a combo of fat and carbs, than almost purely carbs. What happened is people confused highest percentage of fuel consumption from lipids with most total calories burned, which isn't the same thing.

No you wouldn't need to do it every workout, or for every person who works out. But for those seeking a serious performance edge in whatever they do, tests like these can be valuable.

Phillip Garrison 11-19-2008 03:38 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Robert D Taylor Jr;450858]So all we need to do is get a scientist or two to check out the results that are available and we're good. Who do you suggest?[/QUOTE]

Not a scientist or two, but many who come from different places who are neither for or against CF. Would you rather guess that CF is currently doing the best it can, or explore it through rigorous testing?

Chris Walls 11-19-2008 03:39 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
SO you're not saying we need to run these test for CF as a whole, but to optimize training protocols on an athlete by athlete basis?

I guess what I meant by the BS "fat burning zone" is what you see on "cardio" equipment, with a blanket zone for everyone, but MHR varies so much from individual to individual that it is inaccurate at best but most likely RTFO'er.

Phillip Garrison 11-19-2008 03:40 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Chris Walls;450856]But it's that type of nitpicking that got us into the whole nautilus/isolation/machine world we live in now. It's also what took us away from whole foods and into isolated nutrient supplements to make it possible to survive on fake crappy food. By finding something that seems the be the "it" on why it's effective, extracting it in a lab and banking on "it" being all we need.[/QUOTE]

Thats not the nitpicking that got us there. Sales and marketing and the desire to do whats easy go us into nautilus and fast foods. It was sports scientists and strength coaches that brough people back to whole foods and whole body movements.

Seriously why this inherent distrust of science, and the scientific process?

Phillip Garrison 11-19-2008 03:41 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Chris Walls;450863]SO you're not saying we need to run these test for CF as a whole, but to optimize training protocols on an athlete by athlete basis?

I guess what I meant by the BS "fat burning zone" is what you see on "cardio" equipment, with a blanket zone for everyone, but MHR varies so much from individual to individual that it is inaccurate at best but most likely RTFO'er.[/QUOTE]

I'm saying that the only way to improve anything is through rigorous study of it to find it's strengths and weaknesses.

Chris Walls 11-19-2008 03:42 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Phillip Garrisonq;450862]Not a scientist or two, but many who come from different places who are neither for or against CF. Would you rather guess that CF is currently doing the best it can, or explore it through rigorous testing?[/QUOTE]

But most of us consider the WOD (and not necessarily the posted one) as the rigorous testing. I don't care if lab tests tell me that my performance is improving. I know if I'm improving, or if my athletes are improving based on their performance. I don't care if he's switching from anaerobic to aerobic when science tells me is the right time, or if his VO2 max is measuring a certain score... if he drops 2 minutes of a 5k then we're doing good. If he adds 20lbs to a deadlift we're doing good, knocks 2 minutes of any given WOD, again, doing good. Don't particularly care why.

Phillip Garrison 11-19-2008 03:43 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Chris Walls;450869]But most of us consider the WOD (and not necessarily the posted one) as the rigorous testing. I don't care if lab tests tell me that my performance is improving. I know if I'm improving, or if my athletes are improving based on their performance. I don't care if he's switching from anaerobic to aerobic when science tells me is the right time, or if his VO2 max is measuring a certain score... if he drops 2 minutes of a 5k then we're doing good. If he adds 20lbs to a deadlift we're doing good, knocks 2 minutes of any given WOD, again, doing good. Don't particularly care why.[/QUOTE]

Would you care why if it lead to even greater performance increases in less time, or fewer injuries?

Chris Walls 11-19-2008 03:44 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Phillip Garrisonq;450867]I'm saying that the only way to improve anything is through rigorous study of it to find it's strengths and weaknesses.[/QUOTE]

But why does it have to be dissected in a lab to find this? Look back at the very first WOD's posted in the archives... things have been evolving a LOT since cf.com's beginning. This is based on rigorous testing (the WOD) and seeing how it impacts benchmark results. (benchmark WODs instead of your benchmark science, V02, etc...) And tweaking and testing and tweaking and testing... 6 of 1, half dozen of the other I guess.

Chris Walls 11-19-2008 03:45 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Phillip Garrisonq;450873]Would you care why if it lead to even greater performance increases in less time, or fewer injuries?[/QUOTE]

Well the results I'm seeing here are faster then I would have imagined, and injuries are non-existant so far in my gym (at least due to training in my gym... what these yahoos get into on their own time isn't my or CF's fault... heh)

Basically it ain't broke so there's nothing to fix.

Phillip Garrison 11-19-2008 03:47 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Chris Walls;450875]But why does it have to be dissected in a lab to find this? Look back at the very first WOD's posted in the archives... things have been evolving a LOT since cf.com's beginning. This is based on rigorous testing (the WOD) and seeing how it impacts benchmark results. (benchmark WODs instead of your benchmark science, V02, etc...) And tweaking and testing and tweaking and testing... 6 of 1, half dozen of the other I guess.[/QUOTE]

In the field trials is essential part of study and training, but only half the equation. A master carpenter knows alot about building solid structures, but you would still hire an engineer to design a 110 story skyscraper.

Nick Hanson 11-19-2008 03:47 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Ok - one and only reply to this stupidly compelling thread.

Isn't this whole argument like the whole foods vs nutrient arguments? Where we all say that whole foods are better than processed nutrients. Such as a protein powder vs a piece of chicken.

VO2max to me is a piece of the whole fitness shebang (and every other scientific measurement). Isn't the only real metric that matters is work over broad times and modal domains? Why are we breaking it down to scientific crap that no one can measure without complicated tools, than just measuring more work in less time?

Phillip Garrison 11-19-2008 03:48 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Chris Walls;450876]Well the results I'm seeing here are faster then I would have imagined, and injuries are non-existant so far in my gym (at least due to training in my gym... what these yahoos get into on their own time isn't my or CF's fault... heh)

Basically it ain't broke so there's nothing to fix.[/QUOTE]

Rapid training improvements will only come for so long. People improve rapidly doing HIT at 1st too.

Chris Walls 11-19-2008 03:49 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Paraphrasing here but Coach said in one of the journals (I think) that CF is more like a racecar driver's approach to racing, not the engineers who design the cars.

Most of us are the driver and just don't see the same things, or think the same way as the engineers.

Phillip Garrison 11-19-2008 03:50 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Nick Hanson;450879]Ok - one and only reply to this stupidly compelling thread.

Isn't this whole argument like the whole foods vs nutrient arguments? Where we all say that whole foods are better than processed nutrients. Such as a protein powder vs a piece of chicken.

VO2max to me is a piece of the whole fitness shebang (and every other scientific measurement). Isn't the only real metric that matters is work over broad times and modal domains? Why are we breaking it down to scientific crap that no one can measure without complicated tools, than just measuring more work in less time?[/QUOTE]


Well how did we determine whole foods were better than protein powders? How do you define work? How do define modal demains?

Chris Walls 11-19-2008 03:50 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Nick Hanson;450879]Ok - one and only reply to this stupidly compelling thread.

Isn't this whole argument like the whole foods vs nutrient arguments? Where we all say that whole foods are better than processed nutrients. Such as a protein powder vs a piece of chicken.

VO2max to me is a piece of the whole fitness shebang (and every other scientific measurement). Isn't the only real metric that matters is work over broad times and modal domains? Why are we breaking it down to scientific crap that no one can measure without complicated tools, than just measuring more work in less time?[/QUOTE]

I see we have another "driver" :D

Phillip Garrison 11-19-2008 03:50 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Chris Walls;450882]Paraphrasing here but Coach said in one of the journals (I think) that CF is more like a racecar driver's approach to racing, not the engineers who design the cars.

Most of us are the driver and just don't see the same things, or think the same way as the engineers.[/QUOTE]

Than do what you think works best for you, but what do you have to fear or loathe from others wanting more?

Justin Z. Smith 11-19-2008 03:52 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Re scientific research apparently being voodoo:

Obviously we see lies outside of academia. In fact, probably more since they are generally not held as accountable, and there is often no way in heck we can check on their work. In academia, you often can check on things, get datasets, verify sources, etc.

Because science is a self correcting mechanism, if you see "lies, fabrications and buffoonery" getting peer reviewed, especially in a field you are an expert in, it is your duty to submit a devastating critique and get it peer reviewed and published or at least noticed, instead of letting it slip by or just moaning about things but doing nothing.

Challenge the topic, the methods, the research, and seek improvement in them. Don't just give up on the scientific process.


IMO,
Justin

Chris Walls 11-19-2008 03:53 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Phillip Garrisonq;450889]Than do what you think works best for you, but what do you have to fear or loathe from others wanting more?[/QUOTE]

I don't fear nor loathe anyone wanting more information. It's the constant demand for the "proof" without proposing anyway to get it, or giving any suggestions or help in finding the proof. Just constantly demanding it and saying "not sciency enough!" to all the evidence we have in logs.

You want to do a study and get the data? Fill your boots. Go get your proof, but personally my proof is in the pudding, and this pudding tastes pretty damn good. (don't worry, is magic paleo pudding... ;) )

Phillip Garrison 11-19-2008 03:55 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Chris Walls;450891]I don't fear nor loathe anyone wanting more information. It's the constant demand for the "proof" without proposing anyway to get it, or giving any suggestions or help in finding the proof. Just constantly demanding it and saying "not sciency enough!" to all the evidence we have in logs.

You want to do a study and get the data? Fill your boots. Go get your proof, but personally my proof is in the pudding, and this pudding tastes pretty damn good. (don't worry, is magic paleo pudding... ;) )[/QUOTE]

No one here said it's not "sciency enough" and demanded proof without offering a means of achieving it. Do you run an affiliate, or just train at one?

Chris Walls 11-19-2008 03:59 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
I run an affiliate.

Maybe it's just the way I take the replies to people offering up years of logs from thousands of people as enough proof as to its efficacy as being "not sciency enough! try again!" because there is always some reason why it's not data, it's just evidence or some type of hair-splitting.

Phillip Garrison 11-19-2008 04:02 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
You have to understand the scientific method. Raw data is what is known as observed phenomenom. People do crossfit, stuff happens. Know how, why and where is the science, which invariably leads to better improvement.

Chris Walls 11-19-2008 04:06 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Phillip Garrisonq;450906]You have to understand the scientific method. Raw data is what is known as observed phenomenom. People do crossfit, stuff happens. Know how, why and where is the science, which invariably leads to better improvement.[/QUOTE]

I guess that's where I will agree to disagree with you. I am satisfied with keeping it "low-tech" and just continue to black box it and not be overly concerned with the mechanisms that make it work, just that it works. If there comes a day where it stops working then the next step will be to dig deeper and figure it out, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

I also don't train any professional athletes so we're in no hurry to get to such levels of performance that it starts bordering on detrimental to our health.

David Stout 11-19-2008 04:36 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[IMG]http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/3972/deargodmakeitstophp1.jpg[/IMG]

Robert D Taylor Jr 11-19-2008 05:20 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
How does it go? Exercise science to an athlete is like a violin to a deer hunter? Just about the best Coach quote ever.

Tom Woodward 11-19-2008 05:52 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
On topic, just about the greatest Rip quote ever. I don't think we need a double blind milk study to show it's efficacy:


"It is because over thirty years of direct observation has demonstrated to me that when trainees drink one gallon of milk added to their regular diet and train in a progressive linear fashion, they gain significant muscular bodyweight, and those that do not drink their milk, even in the presence of progressive linear training, fail to do this. They also fail to continue progressive linear training for the same length of time, because this is facilitated by the steady weight gain. I understand that you're asking me if I have controlled for other factors such as failure to do the program correctly, and the answer is yes, of course I have, because I am not a complete idiot. Those that will not do the program are not being considered when I make these remarks, because that would be too f***ing obvious a hole in my analysis. The difference in the milk drinkers is that THEY GET BIGGER THAN THE ONES WHO WON'T DRINK THE F***ING MILK. Please tell me that you understand this now."

Derek Maffett 11-19-2008 06:03 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
You do realize that Phillip will now be complaining about how that statement also has to be dissected with extensive research projects?

Phillip, if you are affiliated with a college (did I get that wrong), then you're in a better position than most of us are in to conduct the studies you want.


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