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-   -   T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit (https://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=38880)

Phillip Garrison 12-11-2008 09:02 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
I was hoping this thread would finally die

Shane Skowron 12-11-2008 11:05 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Coach, thanks for clarifying your position on the 500-750# deadlift issue. I think we were all speculating about what that really meant.

Bob Long 12-12-2008 05:41 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
asymptote  /ˈćsɪmˌtoʊt/ [as-im-toht]

–noun Mathematics. a straight line approached by a given curve as one of the variables in the equation of the curve approaches infinity.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Origin:
1650–60; < Gk asýmptōtos, equiv. to a- a- 6 + sýmptōtos falling together (sym- sym- + ptōtós falling, deriv. of ptō-, var. s. of píptein to fall + -tos verbid suffix)

Ok, I know I'm the village idiot around here, but how does the word coach used[I][B] "asymptote"[/B][/I] relate to working out? (Keep it simple, single sylable words only, please.)

Jake Tingley 12-12-2008 06:16 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
He just means that people could approach but probably won't exceed 750#

Coach 12-12-2008 06:27 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Jared Ashley;438148]yeah... it's a recurring over-simplification of a claim with it's root in truth.

The true statement: No athlete has ever reached elite status in their sport training exclusively GPP.

The exaggeration: CF/GPP might be fun, but it's useless to the athlete.

the flip side of this argument comes from the WOD nazi's:

The true statement: GPP is an integral part of nearly all athletic endeavours, and CF is an excellent resource to supplement a training program.

The exaggeration: CF makes you awesome at everything. If you want to win, just shut up and do the WOD.[/QUOTE]

I think that’s very good, Jared.

I’ve never heard anyone say that CrossFit is a substitute for training in your sport. This is a strawman. I’d be embarrassed to utter it, and Poliquin ought to be embarrassed to present it. It’s dishonest. It’s unfair. We teased Mark Twight for floating this strawman on these very pages with the observation that “Mark Twight has discovered that you have to do your sport to get good at it.”

Has Poliquin still not gotten over the Yanks coming to his Canada and taking the soldiers at the Canadian Infantry School from him? We got two times the results in half the time by a handful of easy and critical metrics. Now he’s pretending to have advanced understanding of endocrinology. I wonder if he’s given up on his baking soda and vomiting regimen? That’s what he had the Canadian soldiers doing. It’s sad to see a guy, once a reasonably good coach, get older and hungry, fearful, I guess, of eating dog food in retirement, start scamming the public with pseudo science and supplements. Damn that’s ugly. As a strong and reliable rule, good coaches are selling their knowledge neither pills nor contraptions.

For the record: If you want to get at snowboarding, you’ll have to snowboard. If you want to get good at tennis, you’ll have to play tennis. If you want to get good at Jiu-jitsu, you’ll have to do jiu-jitsu. If you want to get good at baseball you’ll have to play baseball. If you want to get good at swimming, you’ll have to swim. If you want to be good at playing the violin, you’ll have to play the violin. If you want to get good at chess, you’ll have to play chess. If you want to get good at physics, you’ll have to do physics. If you want to get good at X, you’ll have to do X. I sincerely hope a pattern has emerged here that the likes of Poliquin can wrap themselves around.

Here’s what we know about CrossFit, GPP, sport training, and athletic development:

• GPP is the most underdeveloped and neglected aspect of athletic training, especially in elite athletes.

• CrossFit produces an unmatched GPP in novice, intermediate, and advanced athletes regardless of their prior training and sport.

• Every athlete we’ve worked with, from Olympic medalists, to UFC legends, has some glaring chink in his/her GPP, and it takes, at most two hours, two sessions, on average to find these chinks.

• Fixing these chinks, these deficiencies, has immediate benefit within your sport and very often in ways not quite obvious mechanically and perhaps metabolically. For instance, more pull-ups makes for better skiing and skiers. Upper body pushing-movements makes for better rowing and rowers. Anaerobic training is a boon to endurance athletes.

• There’s greater margin for improving performance in elite athletes, where the margins of victory are very tight, improving GPP with CrossFit than can be garnered through additional sport specific training.

• “CrossFit produces a “ready-state” from which more advanced or sport specific training becomes very efficient.” – Mark Twight

• CrossFit, will for many sports reduce the total training volume, reduce training injuries, and allow more time for vital sport specific skills and drills.

• CrossFit is more fun and seems more athletic to experienced athletes than does traditional GPP.

• CrossFit has athletes improving their fitness for years beyond, to levels significantly beyond, traditional GPP.

• Sport training and physiology are not so well understood that highly specialized strength and conditioning routines are optimally effective.

Darrell E. White 12-12-2008 06:53 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Anyone wondering why it was a good thing to have this thread bumped back up need only read Coach's post from this morning. Clear and concise, actionable definitions. Clear and concise rationale for GPP (where, when, and why) for elite athletic specialists. Let's all remember this post and simply cut and paste it into all of those other threads...

Hey Coach, don't be a stranger here, OK?!

-bingo

David Wood 12-12-2008 07:00 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
1 Attachment(s)
[quote=Bob Long;468862]asymptote  /ˈćsɪmˌtoʊt/ [as-im-toht]

–noun Mathematics. a straight line approached by a given curve as one of the variables in the equation of the curve approaches infinity.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Origin:
1650–60; < Gk asýmptōtos, equiv. to a- a- 6 + sýmptōtos falling together (sym- sym- + ptōtós falling, deriv. of ptō-, var. s. of píptein to fall + -tos verbid suffix)

Ok, I know I'm the village idiot around here, but how does the word coach used[I][B] "asymptote"[/B][/I] relate to working out? (Keep it simple, single sylable words only, please.)[/quote]


The asymptote of a curve is the value that it approaches (the output) as some other component (typically, the input) gets bigger and bigger.


For me, at 160 pounds BW, the "asymptote" of my DL would probably be around 450 or (maybe) 500 pounds. I've brought it up to 415 without serious focus, but progress has slowed . . . . I'd be surprised if I could ever get it past 500, even with serious effort.

In Coach's use of the word, it sounds like he was making a quick projection from observing a sample of folks and what they had achieved in 2 years of CrossFit, and estimating what a very large population of such people might obtain . . . that reaching 750 in two years would be pretty much the limit of obtainable performance.

Coincidentally, he was also observing that 500 - 750 is also the upper bound for an "athletic" deadlift . . . in the sense that DL performance beyond this range requires serious specialization on the lift, and would not be compatible with the wider-ranging performance that we're trying to develop.

The two meanings (one direct, one indirect) sort of converge in the notion of "asymptote" as the idea of a limit that one can approach but not surpass.

Coach 12-12-2008 08:29 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
David, thank you. I'd held off hoping our resident PhD Mathematician would step-up. I didn't want to embarrass myself (smile).

You're exactly right. It seemed to me that the number of folks hitting the 500 mark was growing faster than the program. I was seeing a clustering of max values around 450 locally, then 500 as we grew outside of Santa Cruz, then 550+ as we developed nationally, ....I took 750 as a dead reckoning high end based on the apparent clustering and decreasing velocity of the figure's increase. I had one guy hit that mark who CF'd and was a very capable CF'er.

I'd also worked with powerlifters and noticed that around 3.5 times body-weight deadlift the general athletic capacity of the lifter/athlete fell precipitously. It's my sense of things that we'll someday see a CF'er place high at the games with a 700 lb and change deadlift but not 800.

Or maybe the number is 700?

I've got a similar sense of the backsquat but I better keep these thoughts and numbers to myself (bigger smile).

Bob Long 12-12-2008 08:29 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
David (Moderator) Thanks. I sort of understand now. The graph was a great help. Sorry I'm so dense. Thanks again.

Aushion Chatman 12-12-2008 09:23 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Yeah so I think the lesson learned here is to start some $#!T to get Coach to post.

Props to Brandon, Phillip, Jared, etc...I appreciate it :D


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