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-   -   T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit (https://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=38880)

Joey Powell 11-21-2008 05:14 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Sorry, I posted on what i thought was the back end of the thread. Garrison has hit the nail.

Sean Dunston 11-21-2008 08:24 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Phillip Garrisonq;452090]That's ok I'll let the hundreds of Div I athletes I've produced be enough for me.[/QUOTE]

Dude-
You are 30, and you've produced hundreds of D-I athletes?
That is awesome!

:notworth:

Pat McElhone 11-21-2008 08:38 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Phillip Garrisonq;452083]Well go ask everyone who ever competed against the Soviets, they will tell you differently.[/QUOTE]


The soviets did use a lot science to produce champions. How much of their champions were the results of scientific based training protocol, validated through rigorous research and testing, or scientific based pharmacology.

Really, this is a question. The eastern Europeans (I believe East Germany was the epi-center of this) were all about drugs. Their relience very heavily on performance enhancing drugs has tainted their credibility.

Kevin B. Sandberg 11-21-2008 10:07 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Pat McElhone;452329]The soviets did use a lot science to produce champions. How much of their champions were the results of scientific based training protocol, validated through rigorous research and testing, or scientific based pharmacology.

Really, this is a question. The eastern Europeans (I believe East Germany was the epi-center of this) were all about drugs. Their relience very heavily on performance enhancing drugs has tainted their credibility.[/QUOTE]

The inferiority of Eastern Block training methods was proved when Rocky kicked the c*&% out of Drago.

Robert Wolf 11-21-2008 10:16 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Derek Maffett;451847]No duh. Of [I]course[/I] a GPP program is meant to improve general skills, but what you seem to be missing is that people who get better at the CF WOD's [I]get better at everything else too[/I]. Perhaps we should add in weekly gravel shoveling and tightrope walking? I'm pretty sure your own ATG program doesn't.

People aren't just getting better at the WOD's. The reports on improvement on everything, not only the WOD's, are countless.[/QUOTE]

Countless...and tough to quantify with regards to actual sport performance. But that's no reason to discredit teh results.

Brandon-
The stuff you are putting forward is interesting but Gawd-awful tough to do in practical terms.

lets say we implement a CF program on a group of soccer players. Were they trained before? If not anything will benefit them. So, perhaps it should be in comparison to another program...which one? How do we measure proficiency in THAT program? Perhaps it's CF.com wod vs ME-black box vs Gants program vs Catalyst WOD.

Cool...how are we going to get the numbers to test that? How do we verify adherence to the program? There are a load of variables to track just on the training protocol side...Now, HOW do we quantify soccer performance? running the ball through a series of cones? average scoring? Number of blocked shot attempts by the goalie?

When I have said "Go do the science" this is being neither dismissive nor a dicke (although it might appear otherwise). It is literally: GO DO IT! Tell me what you did, what you found. My issue is that it will be like looking through the Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research (I have the current copy right in front of me). The sample sizes are small, the studies poorly designed...or if well designed, telling us almost nothing of value. This in contrast to the huge data set available to us everyday via CF.com and the affiliates. I KNOW this is in the realm of anecdote...but I still see it being more valuable.

So, it sounds like you really want some kind of validation of the programming for 3rd party applications...like I put in a previous post, propose a study design, how it will be administered, what parameters are tracked...the whole enchilada, and we will find a grad student or a program to run it.

Phillip Garrison 11-21-2008 12:29 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Sean Dunston;452321]Dude-
You are 30, and you've produced hundreds of D-I athletes?
That is awesome!

:notworth:[/QUOTE]

I work at a large college, so it's not as hard of an accomplishment as it sounds. I make enough money to pay my mortgage doing a job I love, so in my mind i'm doing great.

Phillip Garrison 11-21-2008 12:31 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Kevin B. Sandberg;452416]The inferiority of Eastern Block training methods was proved when Rocky kicked the c*&% out of Drago.[/QUOTE]

OMG that's awesome

Phillip Garrison 11-21-2008 12:32 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Pat McElhone;452329]The soviets did use a lot science to produce champions. How much of their champions were the results of scientific based training protocol, validated through rigorous research and testing, or scientific based pharmacology.

Really, this is a question. The eastern Europeans (I believe East Germany was the epi-center of this) were all about drugs. Their relience very heavily on performance enhancing drugs has tainted their credibility.[/QUOTE]

Not were all about drugs, are all about drugs. Nothings changed, just the drugs being used.

Sean Dunston 11-21-2008 12:45 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Phillip Garrisonq;452567]I work at a large college, so it's not as hard of an accomplishment as it sounds. I make enough money to pay my mortgage doing a job I love, so in my mind i'm doing great.[/QUOTE]

Ohh - thanks for the explanation.
I thought the statement that "you produced them" meant that you had trained a bunch of young athletes and from that training they [I][B]BECAME [/B][/I]D-I athletes.

Pat McElhone 11-21-2008 12:52 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Phillip Garrisonq;452571]Not were all about drugs, are all about drugs. Nothings changed, just the drugs being used.[/QUOTE]

Phillip,

I do not understand your response. This is a legitimate question I have for you or others. How much of the old Soviet, Eastern Block science-based program design and the successes these athletes had in track and field and weightlifting were based on:

1. Methods that were proven in the labratory using well designed studies (this is my understanding of what yourself and others are looking for in this thread).

2. Ideals formulated from coaching experience, and applying scientific knowledge, principles of physics, physiology, chemisty and combining an understand of both science and athletics. Taking these ideals and applying and seeing improved success (however that is defined), however accepting that these principles worked based on observations, not based on large, controlled studies that proved (p<0.05) the observed successes were actually do the the training methods.

3. Or, finally, did the Soviets do nothing more then just dope all their athletes up. Seriously, where were all the old powerhouses in China? Sure, they were in weightlifting, but no where else.

Again, Philip, I am not asking this in a debate tone, I am asking for your (or others) answer. Thanks,

Pat


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