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-   -   T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit (http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=38880)

Wade Smith 11-15-2008 08:59 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Robb Wolf's summary (and critique) is excellent. Very thorough and thoughtful.

One Poliquin thought that I've been more deeply pondering though is:

"I was concerned about the lack of testing for structural balance issues with trainees. ... I recommend a series of structural balance tests to red-flag muscle imbalances that could increase the athlete’s risk of injury. And if there is a history of injuries with an athlete, those should be addressed in any workout design."

Do CF affiliates & trainers do an adequate job with this? Or is there more of a one-size-fits-all approach? I'm curious. I read the posts in the INJURY forum threads and I wonder.

John C. Brown 11-15-2008 09:26 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Phillip,

Your response to Tony B's question of ranking isn't sufficient. He asked for a thorough ranking of finishes from top to bottom related to Vo2, not just the top finishers. Re-read his post and then go through the results of your beloved Tour de France and see if 1-250 in VO2 max correlate to 1-250 in finishing order and I will bet that it won't.

Besides, it doesn't matter, I have never seen a group of firefighters showing up to a burning building of road bikes with those crazy looking aerodynamic helmets on. I have also never seen(or heard of) any body run 26.2 to save their own life.

Training for strongman comps is not directly correlative to the family in the airport. Those guys are racing each other (all 450 pounds of each other) and not a plane, or an itty bitty guy like me. Could Gabrielese carry more sand bags than me in a flood? Doubt it, not in length or number of bags. Could Magnus Magnusson (sp?) probably not in duration. How often am I going to have to lift a smooth rock weighing 300 pounds up to a pedestal to save my life? Not often (even if I did have to, it would only be once, because I would fail and die), but how often in training did I have to carry a 250 pound dude on a sprint in the woods, just in case he got shot in a real conflict? Often, which would have helped more... I am going with CrossFit here

Donald Lee 11-15-2008 12:05 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
I believe many strongman competitors have a high level of work capacity coupled with high levels of strength.

John C. Brown 11-15-2008 12:44 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
and I believe that French Fries may some day rule the world...

Donald Lee 11-15-2008 02:00 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
And I believe we have never gone to war with a nation with French Fries.

Joey Powell 11-15-2008 02:01 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
I believe this whole discussion needs to be turned on its head. The fact is, that CrossFit type training toughens the MIND. CrossFit.com and CrossFit Inc. (ie. the Glassman's) have struck a nerve.

SOF knows it. USMC knows it. UFC knows it. Cosgrove knows it. T-Nation knows it. Poliquine(?) knows it. Boyle knows it. Twight knows it.

The detractors are searching for one thing... to find a way to mimic the results, but put thier name on it. Sure they might be able to on a small scale, but they have failed to create a movement and reshape what the ENTIRE fitness world is doing.

Their in-ability to defend their results across broad modal time, domains, and participants is all you have to observe.

Those who are interested in creating, harnessing, and maintaining those with the minds of Warriors know what they need. CrossFit.

You will see more and more AthleticCoaches, in all realms, "Buy" into what we do wether it is called CrossFit by them or not, if for know other reason than the natural selection that happens.

Look for more and more Semi-Pro teams creep into CrossFit facilities for both training and Recruiting.

It is already happening us here in Prescott.

Justin Gross 11-15-2008 02:11 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
I'd be hard pressed to believe that a french fry could sprint through the woods carrying his 250 lb buddy.

Now a FREEDOM FRY on the other hand...

John C. Brown 11-15-2008 03:05 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
So Donald are you asking me to give some sort of evidentiary back up to my claim? Preposterous, I should never have to lend support to the things that I bang out on my keyboard.

By the way, have you ever found the McDonald's french fry that you lost under your seat a year later? I believe that those and cockroaches will be the only 2 survivors of an atomic holocaust.

and the argument about CF wods making you better at CF vs. rowing making you better for a crew race is a bad one. CrossFit makes us better over all prepared for our lives, it also makes us better prepared to train in specifics for our sport (and yes, CrossFit is a Sport Phillip, that is why there are "Games"). Now, are there certain sports that will be adversely affected by doing CrossFit? Yes, but they are most likely outnumbered by sports in which CrossFit will simplify the training process, Joey has named a couple.

George Noble 11-15-2008 06:24 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by John C. Brown (Post 447358)
and I believe that French Fries may some day rule the world...

Hang on, am I to take this to mean that you don't think strongmen have high levels of work capacity coupled with high levels of strength?

John C. Brown 11-16-2008 12:27 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
no, but to offer an opinion without any substantiation here is a bit of a waste.

I would suggest that they have HUGE strength, and moderate if not really strong capacity in the Phospho-creatine and glycolitic pathways, but probably fail miserably in the oxidative. I say probably because I have no proof other than people that carry around that mass don't usually do well in the long distance events. It was an example used to demonstrate the opposite side of that long distance athlete. And, in the examples of moving sand bags of cutting down trees to stop a fire, I would say that CrossFit would better prepare you than training for strong man comps.

George Noble 11-16-2008 02:15 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
It's hard to say, and it's speculation. CrossFit has shown that work done in the anaerobic pathways has a carryover to the oxidative pathway. CrossFit is only just responding to the fact that Gant's hybrid worked very well for increasing fitness, and CF certainly isn't the only way to train. It could be that more strength work is needed for optimum fitness. As you say, it's speculation.

I agree with you about speculation. That's why I don't think anyone should claim that a routine can add 550 lbs to someone's deadlift when it never has (at least, nobody has answered my question about where these 750 DLs are), especially not in the same breath as calling for "evidence based fitness." I really did think CF was above this ridiculous muscle mag hyperbole.

Tom Gentleman 11-16-2008 02:18 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by George Noble (Post 447902)
ridiculous muscle mag hyperbole.

Money, my brutha. It makes the world go 'round.

John C. Brown 11-16-2008 02:49 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by George Noble (Post 447902)
It's hard to say, and it's speculation. CrossFit has shown that work done in the anaerobic pathways has a carryover to the oxidative pathway. CrossFit is only just responding to the fact that Gant's hybrid worked very well for increasing fitness, and CF certainly isn't the only way to train. It could be that more strength work is needed for optimum fitness. As you say, it's speculation.

It has shown carry over and in fact will help it significantly however, you can never be competent at it without training it to some degree. CrossFit is looking for performance in all pathways, in all time domains and in all modalities. I just don't think that the strongmen have it across the board. As far as needing more strength work goes, I would say that if it increases over all work capacity across broad time and modal domains then, yes. But I do know of people that have stopped CrossFitting to focus merely on strength and didn't really like results when they came back. I am not sure about what Gant did as far as his programming, but I throw in more lifting any time my met con wods take less than 15 minutes... I am weak though. I think the problem comes in the form of concern of over training, but like you say, the only way to find out is to do the experiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Noble (Post 447902)
I agree with you about speculation. That's why I don't think anyone should claim that a routine can add 550 lbs to someone's deadlift when it never has (at least, nobody has answered my question about where these 750 DLs are), especially not in the same breath as calling for "evidence based fitness." I really did think CF was above this ridiculous muscle mag hyperbole.

I apologize, I don't know anything about your question, I would however re-phrase your statement to say "until." I don't know about any body DLing 750, or 550 (although somebody at the games a couple of years ago backsquated like 600 plus pounds). I know that CrossFit has added several hundred pounds to many people's deads, but I haven't heard of 550.

Phillip Garrison 11-16-2008 02:49 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by John C. Brown (Post 447254)
Phillip,

Your response to Tony B's question of ranking isn't sufficient. He asked for a thorough ranking of finishes from top to bottom related to Vo2, not just the top finishers. Re-read his post and then go through the results of your beloved Tour de France and see if 1-250 in VO2 max correlate to 1-250 in finishing order and I will bet that it won't.

Besides, it doesn't matter, I have never seen a group of firefighters showing up to a burning building of road bikes with those crazy looking aerodynamic helmets on. I have also never seen(or heard of) any body run 26.2 to save their own life.

Training for strongman comps is not directly correlative to the family in the airport. Those guys are racing each other (all 450 pounds of each other) and not a plane, or an itty bitty guy like me. Could Gabrielese carry more sand bags than me in a flood? Doubt it, not in length or number of bags. Could Magnus Magnusson (sp?) probably not in duration. How often am I going to have to lift a smooth rock weighing 300 pounds up to a pedestal to save my life? Not often (even if I did have to, it would only be once, because I would fail and die), but how often in training did I have to carry a 250 pound dude on a sprint in the woods, just in case he got shot in a real conflict? Often, which would have helped more... I am going with CrossFit here

I'm sure there wasn't a perfect correlation between VO2 and the finish of every competitor, but I'd be willing to be the average VO2 of the top 50 finishers was a standard deviation higher than the average VO2 of the bottom 50 finishers. VO2 max is actually a very good predictor of success in being able to fight a fire, and is one of the keep components they now test for.


I'd be willing to wager the work capacity of a top strongman is as high or higher than a CF'r

Tim Donahey 11-16-2008 02:50 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
That article hits the nails on the head. Good read.

John C. Brown 11-16-2008 02:57 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq (Post 447919)
I'm sure there wasn't a perfect correlation between VO2 and the finish of every competitor, but I'd be willing to be the average VO2 of the top 50 finishers was a standard deviation higher than the average VO2 of the bottom 50 finishers. VO2 max is actually a very good predictor of success in being able to fight a fire, and is one of the keep components they now test for.

No, VO2 max is a good predictor of oxygen consumption while fighting a fire, it says nothing of the efficiency of actually fighting the fire. I would bet a shinny nickel that most of the guys that ride the TdFrance couldn't carry a fire hose. They may have the highest VO2 max of any human alive, but they most likely lack the strength to accomplish the work.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq (Post 447919)
I'd be willing to wager the work capacity of a top strongman is as high or higher than a CF'r

In what modality? In what time domain? I would say that Casey Burgener can out snatch pretty much anyone in the U.S.A. He didn't finish Fran his first try. Now, I recognize that Oly lifting and Strongman are different, but I would also double your wager and say that their work capacity doesn't hit the top of the CrossFit food chain. Alas, this argument is folly, because it isn't likely to happen (the testing) although I am sure that there are a ton of CrossFitters (including the Glassman's) who would love to see it happen.

Phillip Garrison 11-16-2008 03:09 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by John C. Brown (Post 447925)
No, VO2 max is a good predictor of oxygen consumption while fighting a fire, it says nothing of the efficiency of actually fighting the fire. I would bet a shinny nickel that most of the guys that ride the TdFrance couldn't carry a fire hose. They may have the highest VO2 max of any human alive, but they most likely lack the strength to accomplish the work.




In what modality? In what time domain? I would say that Casey Burgener can out snatch pretty much anyone in the U.S.A. He didn't finish Fran his first try. Now, I recognize that Oly lifting and Strongman are different, but I would also double your wager and say that their work capacity doesn't hit the top of the CrossFit food chain. Alas, this argument is folly, because it isn't likely to happen (the testing) although I am sure that there are a ton of CrossFitters (including the Glassman's) who would love to see it happen.

I never said the riders would make good firefighters, but the ability to handle the hypoxic demands of fires, makes having a good VO2 a predictor of withstanding the rigors of the profession. You're right WL and Strongman are different, I've done both.

John C. Brown 11-16-2008 03:20 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq (Post 447929)
I never said the riders would make good firefighters, but the ability to handle the hypoxic demands of fires, makes having a good VO2 a predictor of withstanding the rigors of the profession. You're right WL and Strongman are different, I've done both.

No, you said that VO2 max is a predictor for successful firefighting. If that is the case then these bike riders would be successful at firefighting. I say they wouldn't be even if I spot them another 200 points on their VO2 max testy thingy.

And Fires aren't a hypoxia problem either, fire fighters wear air tanks. The question becomes how many times will they have to get a new tank during the duration of the fire. In which case VO2 max has some relevance, but only if they are strong enough to carry the tanks... plus an axe, hose, potentially a buddy or a burn victim. For that situation riding a bike is not going to help much.

Look, all people are trying to tell you is that CrossFit's definition of fitness is clear. He who can do the most work (in all time domains and presumably any task) is the fittest. These are the demands of life. The caveman that could crush competitors with the biggest rock would only survive if he could out run the mammoth too, the guy that could do both would survive longest.

Tim Donahey 11-16-2008 03:29 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Darrell E. White (Post 438513)
My only criticism is in your treatment of Greg Glassman. While Greg is admittedly a lightening rod, isn't that in part the required role for the founder/leader/mouthpiece for any new movement of any kind? Your observations are in general accurate, but you took the easy route in seeking comment from individuals who are openly hostile.

Chris offered Glassman the opportunity to speak for himself and he refused. If it seemed one-sided in that respect it's because Coach wanted it that way.

Just sayin'.

Phillip Garrison 11-16-2008 03:31 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by John C. Brown (Post 447934)
No, you said that VO2 max is a predictor for successful firefighting. If that is the case then these bike riders would be successful at firefighting. I say they wouldn't be even if I spot them another 200 points on their VO2 max testy thingy.

And Fires aren't a hypoxia problem either, fire fighters wear air tanks. The question becomes how many times will they have to get a new tank during the duration of the fire. In which case VO2 max has some relevance, but only if they are strong enough to carry the tanks... plus an axe, hose, potentially a buddy or a burn victim. For that situation riding a bike is not going to help much.

Look, all people are trying to tell you is that CrossFit's definition of fitness is clear. He who can do the most work (in all time domains and presumably any task) is the fittest. These are the demands of life. The caveman that could crush competitors with the biggest rock would only survive if he could out run the mammoth too, the guy that could do both would survive longest.


Yes VO2 is a predictor of successful fire fighting, I didn't say it wad the only predictor. How do you know a TDF rider couldn't handle firefighting. CF's definition isn't clear. BTW i"ve actually trained and studied firefighter training and fitness, have you?

George Noble 11-16-2008 03:54 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by John C. Brown (Post 447918)
I apologize, I don't know anything about your question, I would however re-phrase your statement to say "until." I don't know about any body DLing 750, or 550 (although somebody at the games a couple of years ago backsquated like 600 plus pounds). I know that CrossFit has added several hundred pounds to many people's deads, but I haven't heard of 550.

You personally have nothing to apologise for. I'm taking issue with Glassman's statement that Brandon Oto pointed out, claiming that CF could take a deadlift from 200 to 500-750 lbs in two years (and thus making CrossFit better for making world class powerlifters than any specific powerlifting/strength routine - I don't even think Mark Rippetoe has ever claimed such feats). Until I hear of that actually happening I say it's BS.

Tim Donahey 11-16-2008 04:16 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by George Noble (Post 447949)
You personally have nothing to apologise for. I'm taking issue with Glassman's statement that Brandon Oto pointed out, claiming that CF could take a deadlift from 200 to 500-750 lbs in two years (and thus making CrossFit better for making world class powerlifters than any specific powerlifting/strength routine - I don't even think Mark Rippetoe has ever claimed such feats). Until I hear of that actually happening I say it's BS.

I agree. Crossfit won't take your deadlift to 500-750 in two years without some specific training. Crossfit has you maxing out on deadlift maybe 1-2x a month, so let's say we max out on deadlifts maybe 18x a year. That means you'd have to add an average of 8-15 lbs to your 1RM every time you deadlifted (36x) over a two year timespan. I just don't think that's feasible outside of a strength program.

I could be wrong though. Anyone here done this on Crossfit only training?

Darrell E. White 11-16-2008 04:22 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Tim:

Coach Glassman addressed that in one of his posts here. The questions that were emailed were inflammatory and not designed to foster a frank and open discussion of CF, or even of the differences in opinion about CF held outside of the community. If you've also been reading elsewhere here on the Message Board and on the Main Page Comments you would see that Coach has had an ongoing dialog with the author; my bet is that we will see a follow up article.

Gant Grimes "Hybrid" is Crossfit. Go back and read "What is Crossfit", as well as everything in "Start Here" on the Main Page. Gant has combined focused strength work with doublet and triplet WOD's that are shorter and heavier than the typical Main Page WOD, but the met-con WOD's are Crossfit. Any statement to the contrary is inaccurate. Crossfit is more than the Main Page WOD.

Jeff Martin 11-16-2008 04:32 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Tim your wrong. I have a 170 pound kid, okay 24 year old, who just pulled 500. Several who are approaching that mark. A 17 year old 150 pound kid who squats in the mid 300's. Not one of them has left the CrossFit methodology.

Details to follow with Bingo's help.

Steven Anderson 11-16-2008 04:54 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq (Post 447939)
Yes VO2 is a predictor of successful fire fighting, I didn't say it wad the only predictor. How do you know a TDF rider couldn't handle firefighting. CF's definition isn't clear. BTW i"ve actually trained and studied firefighter training and fitness, have you?

...you've "studied" firefighting...and what training? I AM a firefighter. I haven't just studied it and trained it, but I live it, every third day. Aside from the fact of pulling hose, carrying an ax and hauling other equipment; wearing gear and breathing through an SCBA mask and the whole adrenaline "spike" that comes with fighting an actual fire is a whole different ball game than wearing spandex and an aerodynamic helmet and riding a ****ing bicycle. I don't give a **** what your VO2 max is? I work alongside firefighters that go into burning buildings with a wad of ****ing dip in their mouths and come out and smoke a cigarette. I guarantee you they would blow the pants of most tour de france riders.

I have read some really great posts here, especially from the greats: Coach, Rob Wolfe, etc. Your knowledge and explanation of EVERYTHING that we've been discussing here is tremendously insightful and refreshing, and frankly is still making me wonder why some just aren't getting it.

But, I would have to say, I'd like to hear from some of the other greats. YOU KNOW, the elites that actaully DO the ****ing program and can give an educated response on what CF has done for them and their fitness level and its carryover to everyday life activites and specialized sports. Speal, Jason K, OPT, those guys. It still baffles me how Poliquin, Boyle, etc. can criticize a program they have never tried, and I mean TRIED. How can anybody bash something they have never even attempted for a REASONABLE amount of time? Kinda like Sean ****ing Penn and every other hollywood actor with an opinion on the conflict in the Middle East. Really? Maybe Poliquin should do CF for a year and TRULY find out what the hell CF is really all about. Maybe Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon should join the Army for a year and TRULY find out what the hell war is really all about. Get my drift?

The argument that CF prepares you for everyday life activities shouldn't really be an arguement at all...again if one has put any REAL time into the program. I think under Anthony Bainbridge's profile it says something in effect of "If you don't get nervous before you train, then you're not training hard enough." I find this to be true. CF builds tremendous mental toughness, more so than any other program I've ever been associated with.

All this talk with testing this and that in the lab...yea, whatever. Here's a solution, test yourselves. Pick a goal. Do the program for x amout of time. Do another program for x amout of time. Compare the results. Which one brought you to your goal faster? Which one made you faster, bigger, stronger, better VO2 max, highter VJ, look better naked, etc. etc. etc.? Only each of us truly knows what works for us. With that being said, maybe we ALL should read this: http://rosstraining.com/blog/2008/11...80%99ll-do-me/ (w/f/s)

Tim Donahey 11-16-2008 04:55 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Darrell E. White (Post 447968)
Tim:

Coach Glassman addressed that in one of his posts here. The questions that were emailed were inflammatory and not designed to foster a frank and open discussion of CF, or even of the differences in opinion about CF held outside of the community. If you've also been reading elsewhere here on the Message Board and on the Main Page Comments you would see that Coach has had an ongoing dialog with the author; my bet is that we will see a follow up article.

Fair enough, I haven't seen the questions.

Quote:

Gant Grimes "Hybrid" is Crossfit.
Well... technically it's a hybrid of Crossfit and strength training.

Tim Donahey 11-16-2008 04:56 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Martin (Post 447974)
Tim your wrong. I have a 170 pound kid, okay 24 year old, who just pulled 500. Several who are approaching that mark. A 17 year old 150 pound kid who squats in the mid 300's. Not one of them has left the CrossFit methodology.

Details to follow with Bingo's help.

Hey, I'm happy to be wrong. :)

David Wood 11-16-2008 06:07 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Anderson (Post 447986)
...you've "studied" firefighting...and what training? I AM a firefighter. I haven't just studied it and trained it, but I live it, every third day. Aside from the fact of pulling hose, carrying an ax and hauling other equipment; wearing gear and breathing through an SCBA mask and the whole adrenaline "spike" that comes with fighting an actual fire is a whole different ball game than wearing spandex and an aerodynamic helmet and riding a ****ing bicycle. I don't give a **** what your VO2 max is? I work alongside firefighters that go into burning buildings with a wad of ****ing dip in their mouths and come out and smoke a cigarette. I guarantee you they would blow the pants of most tour de france riders.

I have read some really great posts here, especially from the greats: Coach, Rob Wolfe, etc. Your knowledge and explanation of EVERYTHING that we've been discussing here is tremendously insightful and refreshing, and frankly is still making me wonder why some just aren't getting it.

But, I would have to say, I'd like to hear from some of the other greats. YOU KNOW, the elites that actaully DO the ****ing program and can give an educated response on what CF has done for them and their fitness level and its carryover to everyday life activites and specialized sports. Speal, Jason K, OPT, those guys. It still baffles me how Poliquin, Boyle, etc. can criticize a program they have never tried, and I mean TRIED. How can anybody bash something they have never even attempted for a REASONABLE amount of time? Kinda like Sean ****ing Penn and every other hollywood actor with an opinion on the conflict in the Middle East. Really? Maybe Poliquin should do CF for a year and TRULY find out what the hell CF is really all about. Maybe Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon should join the Army for a year and TRULY find out what the hell war is really all about. Get my drift?

The argument that CF prepares you for everyday life activities shouldn't really be an arguement at all...again if one has put any REAL time into the program. I think under Anthony Bainbridge's profile it says something in effect of "If you don't get nervous before you train, then you're not training hard enough." I find this to be true. CF builds tremendous mental toughness, more so than any other program I've ever been associated with.

All this talk with testing this and that in the lab...yea, whatever. Here's a solution, test yourselves. Pick a goal. Do the program for x amout of time. Do another program for x amout of time. Compare the results. Which one brought you to your goal faster? Which one made you faster, bigger, stronger, better VO2 max, highter VJ, look better naked, etc. etc. etc.? Only each of us truly knows what works for us. With that being said, maybe we ALL should read this: http://rosstraining.com/blog/2008/11...80%99ll-do-me/ (w/f/s)


Thank God for the automatic **** censor, otherwise I'd have to be deleting that post :).

Robert D Taylor Jr 11-16-2008 06:26 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Tim, how does one "hybrid" something and an element of itself? CF without strength training... isn't CF. Saying it's a strength centric version of CF principles seems to be a more accurate description of it.

Adam Scheiner 11-16-2008 06:35 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
I think there are much stronger folks out there who are doing crossfit and have 550+ deadlifts and amazing metcons then people realize. For example Anthony Bainbridge or does anyone want to guess what these guys can do? There are monsters in this community using crossfit(individualized at an affiliate or main site) and becoming strong at levels which most power lifters respect. Just because you don't know if they're out there doesn't mean they are not.

Moderators note: There's a link there, and it's safe. Wish to hell a guy with 560 posts to his credit could remember to do this.

David Stout 11-16-2008 06:42 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Darrell E. White (Post 447968)
Tim:

Coach Glassman addressed that in one of his posts here. The questions that were emailed were inflammatory and not designed to foster a frank and open discussion of CF, or even of the differences in opinion about CF held outside of the community. If you've also been reading elsewhere here on the Message Board and on the Main Page Comments you would see that Coach has had an ongoing dialog with the author; my bet is that we will see a follow up article.

Gant Grimes "Hybrid" is Crossfit. Go back and read "What is Crossfit", as well as everything in "Start Here" on the Main Page. Gant has combined focused strength work with doublet and triplet WOD's that are shorter and heavier than the typical Main Page WOD, but the met-con WOD's are Crossfit. Any statement to the contrary is inaccurate. Crossfit is more than the Main Page WOD.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Scheiner (Post 448067)
I think there are much stronger folks out there who are doing crossfit and have 550+ deadlifts and amazing metcons then people realize. For example Anthony Bainbridge or does anyone want to guess what these guys can do? There are monsters in this community using crossfit(individualized at an affiliate or main site) and becoming strong at levels which most power lifters respect. Just because you don't know if they're out there doesn't mean they are not.

Yes, but I think some of the guys are looking for the Main Page WOD to produce this 700 DL without modification to the programming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert D Taylor Jr (Post 448058)
Tim, how does one "hybrid" something and an element of itself? CF without strength training... isn't CF. Saying it's a strength centric version of CF principles seems to be a more accurate description of it.

I think it goes beyond this because Gant's Hybrid encorporates more than the element of the lift(s) itself. The Hybrid uses elements of other strength training methodologies (see his original post for details). Thus, Tim's description fits to me.

Tim Donahey 11-16-2008 06:56 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert D Taylor Jr (Post 448058)
Tim, how does one "hybrid" something and an element of itself? CF without strength training... isn't CF. Saying it's a strength centric version of CF principles seems to be a more accurate description of it.

It incorporates principles from Westside Barbell, Bulgarian Training Manuals, and The Texas Method. These are concepts outside the scope of Crossfit's Theoretical Programming Template.

Ivan Wolfe 11-16-2008 07:08 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Darrell E. White (Post 447968)
Tim:

Coach Glassman addressed that in one of his posts here. The questions that were emailed were inflammatory and not designed to foster a frank and open discussion of CF, or even of the differences in opinion about CF held outside of the community.

Over at the T-nation forums, he posted the questions he e-mailed coach (as wfs as T-Nation can be):

Quote:

Q: What can CrossFit do for the Testosterone Muscle audience: the guy or gal who wants to build a lot of muscle and lose fat to show it off, but may not
care that much about endurance etc.?

Q: One of the topics that really works up the bodybuilding crowd is your
statements about hypertrophy. You write that bodybuilding with steroids
leads to the most muscle mass (no argument there!) but you also place
natural Crossfitters above natural bodybuilders. Are you saying a person
can do Crossfit and compete well in a natural bodybuilding competition?
Note: I've seen some great physiques in CrossFit, but in my observation
those who are more muscular built that muscle with their previous,
traditional weight training methods, THEN got into CrossFit. Comments?

Q: One CrossFit affiliate coach told me he's worried that quality control
will go down the more affiliates that appear. Is Crossfit growing too fast
to keep quality up? Are standards too low? After all, there's no written
test for certification, correct?

Q: What offends many people isn't the CrossFit style of training but the
sometimes cavalier or flippant attitude toward certain subjects. The use
of the clown mascots bothers a lot of people for example. Also, the
posting of the "Makimba" video with the kids seems like a heavy-handed
jab, especially the renaming of the workout. Comments?

Q: The 300 movie issue is very muddled. Twight basically says he
developed his own style and used that for the actors. CrossFit seems to be
saying that he ripped them off. It's hard to find the real truth here.
What's really going on?

Q: You had a run-in with one of my editors, TC Luoma, who made some snotty comments about Crossfit. You challenged him to compete against a female CrossFit athlete. Why not challenge him yourself? Also, the New
York Times article implied that you don't train Crossfit anymore yourself,
but I understand the reporter may have muddled that. What's the story with
these issues?
Of course, he later said: (as wfs as T-nation can be)
Quote:

Quick Note: I just had a great two-hour conversation with Greg Glassman. Wish it could have happened while I was preparing the article, as it would have added much to it, but good to talk to him personally regardless.

I was hoping to post much of our convo here, but we covered so many subjects that it would be impossible to pass along everything. Maybe I'll post a few topics later, as I did pick up a lot of interesting things. Or maybe Greg and I could do something in the future for the public: audio interview about what fitness really is, the CrossFit definition of it, etc. Just thinking out loud here.

For now, just wanted to let everyone know that we did talk, a little late for the article, but a good talk nonetheless.
Make of it what you will.

Dave Parmly 11-16-2008 07:31 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Good, measured article. Thought-provoking.

I know CF sure works for me and what MY goals are, but I'd be more than willing to tell WOD nazis to stuff it, etc. Maybe not all would be.

We should never think anything we do is so right it cannot be examined critically. Openness to criticism is a sign of strength.

Steven Anderson 11-16-2008 07:40 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by David Wood (Post 448046)
Thank God for the automatic **** censor, otherwise I'd have to be deleting that post :).

I know. I did go a bit overboard. :)

Shane Rapp 11-16-2008 07:43 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Parmly (Post 448121)
Good, measured article. Thought-provoking.

I know CF sure works for me and what MY goals are, but I'd be more than willing to tell WOD nazis to stuff it, etc. Maybe not all would be.

We should never think anything we do is so right it cannot be examined critically. Openness to criticism is a sign of strength.

Well said.

Robert D Taylor Jr 11-16-2008 08:12 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
I believe it does incorporate principles from other protocols. That doesn't make it not CF. Neither does "violating" the template. Main page does that probably 50-60% of the time (SWAG numbers)

Tim Donahey 11-16-2008 08:27 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert D Taylor Jr (Post 448137)
I believe it does incorporate principles from other protocols. That doesn't make it not CF. Neither does "violating" the template. Main page does that probably 50-60% of the time (SWAG numbers)

Quite right. Everything is Crossfit! (ladedadelalaladeda :whistlin:)

John C. Brown 11-16-2008 10:19 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq (Post 447939)
Yes VO2 is a predictor of successful fire fighting, I didn't say it wad the only predictor. How do you know a TDF rider couldn't handle firefighting. CF's definition isn't clear. BTW i"ve actually trained and studied firefighter training and fitness, have you?

Wow! did someone pee in your maple syrup?

I had posted a pithy reply but my judgment caught up to me about 10 minutes later... You are waste of time.

Donald Lee 11-16-2008 11:23 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
I think we should stop attacking each other personally over the internet. It's childish. It's frustrating when others don't agree with you, but that's a fact of life and a fact in the academic community. You don't see academics writing inflammatory articles about one another.

BTW, I don't see what's so crazy about the belief that VO2 is one of the indicators of fitness. Phillip's not arguing that you need to train to raise your VO2, but that VO2 is a byproduct of fitness.


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