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-   -   Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM (https://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=86218)

Coach 02-19-2014 07:08 PM

Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
For years I've been challenging the exercise science community to name a single contribution coming from academia that has changed the way any athlete or coach trained for a sport.

In 2003, on this message-board, I repeated the challenge.
[url]http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?p=15322#post15322[/url]

It turns out I'd not been paying enough attention to academic sports sciences to catch a major development.

Throughout the 1990's the American College of Sports Medicine, the Gatorade Sports Science Institute, and Gatorade published peer reviewed literature that recommended that athletes drink as much as 40 ounces of water, or better yet a sports drink, for each hour they exercised, or "consume the maximum amount that can be tolerated".

The American College of Sports Medicine and their "Platinum Sponsor," their only platinum sponsor, Gatorade, systematically debased thermoregulatory science, and subsequently hydration science, in order to promote Gatorade. The consequences of this were the deaths of at least a dozen people, and serious injury to thousands others. I believe that the Gatorade/ACSM cabal also has the distinction of having adversely affected sporting performance on a level the world has never seen before, and profit is and remains the singular motive.

The mechanism by which these deaths and injuries occur is "exercise associated hyponatremia" and "exercise associated hyponatremic encephalopathy." The cause of these deaths was pure and simple over drinking promoted by Gatorade and the ACSM.

It's time to drive Big Soda out of fitness and by extension, the health sciences.

On the upside, I missed another important contribution, this one not deadly but lifesaving. Dr. Timothy Noakes, MD, DSc has tirelessly led the battle against the Gatorade/ACSM alliance and their deadly corruption of sport and health science for nearly twenty years. Dr. Noakes' book "Waterlogged" is a brilliant and courageous accounting of this unbelievable story and a major contribution to training and sport science. I salute him.

Luke Sirakos 02-19-2014 07:55 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Down with hydration?

Mike Doehla 02-19-2014 08:07 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
I always thought drinking Gatorade during workouts were great for you. Plus I love Michael Jordan so I can't quit.

Jason Kelley 02-20-2014 03:13 AM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
There was a study (quite recent) that used athletes and rehydrated them by IV so they could not 'taste' what they were 'drinking'.

Those who just got water performed as well as those who got some fancy electrolyte concoction.

Christopher Morris 02-20-2014 11:14 AM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
[QUOTE=Jason Kelley;1220085]There was a study (quite recent) that used athletes and rehydrated them by IV so they could not 'taste' what they were 'drinking'.

Those who just got water performed as well as those who got some fancy electrolyte concoction.[/QUOTE]

I'm guessing this study was for relatively short exercise? Hyponatremia is a risk if you're exercise for long periods and overhydrating (for example, a marathon runner).

The point Coach is trying to make is that overhydration is dangerous, whether with water or Gatorade.

A Google search of "Gatorade hyponatremia" is pretty interesting.

Dakota Base 02-20-2014 11:32 AM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
[QUOTE=Coach;1220054]Throughout the 1990's the American College of Sports Medicine, the Gatorade Sports Science Institute, and Gatorade published peer reviewed literature that recommended that athletes [B]drink as much as 40 ounces of water, or better yet a sports drink, for each hour they exercised, or "consume the maximum amount that can be tolerated". [/B]

...pure and simple over drinking promoted by Gatorade and the ACSM.

...Dr. Noakes' book "Waterlogged" is a brilliant and courageous accounting of this unbelievable story and a major contribution to training and sport science.[/QUOTE]

Pulled out a few snippets of your post to focus in on those points.

This is a gap where I think Crossfit is being somewhat intentionally ignorant. While the "crosstraining revolution" (decades old, NOT attributed to Crossfit) was a major advance in sports fitness, we're not the only players in the game, and we can learn things from our "specialized" comrades.

While I've been crosstraining for 20yrs, I also supplemented with running and cycling. About 5yrs ago, I dipped my toe into the realm of becoming "serious about endurance," so I studied and asked questions. [U]This was one of those questions.[/U] I grew up with coaches touting the "you're dehydrated by the time you feel thirsty" and "take in as much as your gut can stand" lines, and I felt like crap during long runs over 8miles, or bike rides over 30mi. One of my coaches suggested gatorade over water, another recommended salt tabs, both with the idea of replacing electrolytes. But then I finally realized, my coaches were only as good as the information they had in hand.

Controlled/limited water/carb intake during exercise is something that has been well known to endurance athletes for a long time. I can't say when it started, but I CAN say it was well established at least 5yrs ago when I started to "convert" over to endurance. As described in Dr. Noakes book, around 20oz per hour is the maximal absorption rate for men, half of the recommendation you cited as Gatorade's claims. If this post marks the introduction of this information to the Crossfit community, then boy, I gotta say, we're WAY behind. Maybe it's time we start paying more attention to how the other half lives?

Now, granted, comparing something learned a decade ago with something learned 30yrs ago isn't necessarily fair. Maybe 10yrs from now we'll find out that the proper number is 30oz instead of 20oz or 40oz, just like we learned more about cholesterol, eggs, carbs (adkins, paleo, zone, etc), and on and on. I'm not in that loop well enough to know whether "big soda" as you call it is refuting how much water should be consumed per hour or whether they've accepted the new discoveries. Frankly, I just spent an hour looking for any REAL science on the Gatorade.com website, and didn't really find any. While that's disheartening because they claim to be a science based product, on the other hand, they're not making claims through their site as if they are standing on the 40oz/hour recommendation.

What I DO think is misleading, if anyone remembers 5-10yrs ago, there used to be a silhouette of a guy on the gatorade bottle, pouring a drink into his mouth, and there were "K+" and "Mg+" hexagons pouring in. The idea is that Gatorade replenishes your depleted electrolytes with potassium and magnesium salts (with Mg being popular at that time due to the "sea salt" fad). Great news, as that would be safer than sodium salts, but the bad news is that if you look at the nutrition label, there wasn't actually any magnesium in it. Maybe it was just a marketing screw up (since marketing and graphics design folks aren't often the ones formulating products), maybe it was intentionally misleading, that I can't say.

Simplest answer is to know what you're drinking, and why you're drinking it. I don't have a beef with "big soda" because nobody asked Pepsi to provide a health food product, they asked for a drink that tastes good. I don't have a beef with McDonald's because nobody asked them to provide healthy double quarter pounders. Consumers drive product development and marketing strategies. People want more, whether it's more taste, bigger servings, more savings, more options, you name it. Nobody forced half of Americans to become overweight, they chose to eat that way. I'd argue that a VAST majority of the annual Gatorade consumption each year isn't by someone actively training, or fueling or recovering therefrom. People drink it for the taste, and for the image. That's their baggage, and they have to deal with the consequences, just like they have to deal with the consequences of drinking beer over dinner, or deal with the consequences of not getting enough fiber in their diet. Overdo it with Gatorade, you'll have issues, just like if you overdo it with beer.

Dakota Base 02-20-2014 11:44 AM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
[QUOTE=Christopher Morris;1220169]I'm guessing this study was for relatively short exercise? Hyponatremia is a risk if you're exercise for long periods and overhydrating (for example, a marathon runner).[/QUOTE]

Don't get caught up in extremes. It can happen much easier than most people realize.

I spent enough time (debatably too much time) at the gym in college that I caught most of the "going's on" through osmosis. When a girl went down on the treadmill one morning while I was there. I talked about it later with the manager. She commented that the girl went down from hyponatremia, and that girls go down every year, usually in the spring semester, right after new years. They're on crash diets and suddenly burst into exercise that their body isn't used to, and only drinking water. They all had their cute pink waterbottles and had read online they needed to drink a half gallon a day or more of water.

Boom, electrolyte shortage. Granted they have malnutrition issues coming soon enough behind it, hopefully they'd give up their diet before that happened, but sometimes they didn't.

These girls aren't marathoners, they're just jogging 30min a day on a treadmill and not feeding their bodies properly, and unfortunately hydrating properly becomes a bad thing.

Christopher Morris 02-20-2014 01:19 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
[QUOTE=Dakota Base;1220174]What I DO think is misleading, if anyone remembers 5-10yrs ago, there used to be a silhouette of a guy on the gatorade bottle, pouring a drink into his mouth, and there were "K+" and "Mg+" hexagons pouring in.

Simplest answer is to know what you're drinking, and why you're drinking it. I don't have a beef with "big soda" because nobody asked Pepsi to provide a health food product, they asked for a drink that tastes good. [/QUOTE]

Gatorade has marketed itself and provided "research" to place itself as an electrolyte replacement. This thread is questioning whether it serves a benefit as it claims, i.e., we're debating the "why you're drinking it."

I stopped drinking Gatorade years ago when I noticed the first ingredients are water and sugar. That tells me it is made for taste primarily.

Jeff Enge 02-20-2014 01:37 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
[QUOTE=Christopher Morris;1220190]I stopped drinking Gatorade years ago when I noticed the first ingredients are water and sugar. That tells me it is made for taste primarily.[/QUOTE]

That's why I started adding it back in actually. Easily drinkable intra-workout carbs that are taste-compatible with my BCAAs.

Christopher Morris 02-20-2014 02:20 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
[QUOTE=Jeff Enge;1220191]taste-compatible with my BCAAs.[/QUOTE]

"Taste-compatible" - that's a good word. I think a true electrolyte replacement would taste like sweat. :puke0000:

Jeff Enge 02-20-2014 02:23 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
[QUOTE=Christopher Morris;1220203]"Taste-compatible" - that's a good word. I think a true electrolyte replacement would taste like sweat. :puke0000:[/QUOTE]

Blegh. The BCAAs by themselves don't taste all that great either. So the Gatorade powder makes that a little better. Either way, I definitely noticed more gas (energy, not farts) going into the latter half of my workouts (squats mostly, after snatch and C&J first half) when I added some nutrients.

Chris Mason 02-20-2014 02:35 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
At the risk of sounding self aggrandizing, I have been telling the hydration maniacs for years that you don't need to drink gallons per day and we are not generally dehydrated...

Daniel Dean 02-20-2014 03:28 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
[QUOTE=Jeff Enge;1220204]Gatorade powder[/QUOTE]

This is key, since the powder is sweetened with 100% dextrose, whereas your standard off-the-shelf gatorade is HFCS.

Of course, you could also just use plain dextrose powder and a pinch of salt. Corn syrup (not HFCS, regular Karo-type corn syrup) is tasty too and 100% glucose.

Jeff Enge 02-20-2014 03:31 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
[QUOTE=Daniel Dean;1220217]This is key, since the powder is sweetened with 100% dextrose, whereas your standard off-the-shelf gatorade is HFCS.[/QUOTE]

Huh! Learn something everyday!

Christopher Morris 02-20-2014 04:31 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
[QUOTE=Chris Mason;1220205]At the risk of sounding self aggrandizing, I have been telling the hydration maniacs for years that you don't need to drink gallons per day and we are not generally dehydrated...[/QUOTE]

This reminds me of [URL="http://www.board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=85280"]the thread[/URL] (wfs) about morning dehydration where you learnt me a thing or two. Thanks, Chris!

Lynne Pitts 02-21-2014 08:43 AM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
To "sweeten the pot" :D CrossFit has 500 copies of Noakes' book available to give to interested parties; reply in this thread if you would like one. We'll grab your email from the admin side, so you don't need to post your email publicly, and our team will contact you for the rest of your information.
Requests so far - will keep this updated, so hit me if I miss you.

Joshua J Grenell
Chris Cooper
Christopher Morris
Dakota Base
Andy Shirley
Russel K Olofson
Teena Escobar
Amy Hollingsworth
Jason Donaldson
Alden Hingle
Christopher E Bloom
Jesse Phillips
Barry Stockbrugger
Ryan Kingsbury
Darrel White
Kirez Reynolds
Darby Darrow
MIchael Wuest
Jason David
Kevin Keast
Joey Dussel
Adam Manery
Robert D Taylor Jr
Mark Lamoree
Greg Whitekettle
Rob McBee
Josh Murphy
William J Mallon
Greg Light
Steven Nedorolik
Steven Wingo
Brian Watts
Shane Scott
Preston Sprimont
Dave Rubin
Chris Russell
Sean Rockett
Graham Leck
Sean McCue
Kenny Markwardt

Coach 02-21-2014 08:50 AM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Dakota,

You're missing the point. You'll probably find it near impossible to make meaningful inputs without investigating the topic. Don't take my word for any of this, but don't shoot from the hip blindfolded either. You might want to start with the British Journal of Sport's Medicine's indictment of Gatorade and the ACSM - if you don't have the time to really read Noakes book. It's not an easy read for many and will take more than a few days to intelligently work through, but once you have, once you've studied the history and the literature published by Gatorade/ACSM, you'll see the deadly consequences of big-soda's incursion into health/fitness/sports science. It's a travesty. Gatorade and the ACSM have blood on their hands. Lot's of it. That's as simple as it is true.

Here's the Reader's Digest version...The ACSM an organization that I'd expect to be chartered with protecting athletes and advancing sports science, allowed Gatorade, a big-soda subsidiary to corrupt thermoregulatory science and subsequently hydration science with the intent to sell more crappy lemonade. It worked well enough but the problem is that the corrupt science and the recommendations therein killed people. This rises to Lawn Darts, exploding Pintos, Big Tobacco product liability (forget the performance degradation, the cover-up, and wasted money for the time being) that media, and the fitness community missed.

Jeff Enge 02-21-2014 09:25 AM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
I'm curious as to what you are doing to fight Big Soda in addition to posting this on the CrossFit message board?

Darryl Shaw 02-21-2014 01:47 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
If anyone's interested in reading the papers under discussion they can be found in the features section [URL="http://www.bmj.com/content/345/7866"]here[/URL] under the heading "The Truth About Sports Drinks". The full text of these papers is behind a pay-wall but I found some of them posted online.

Anyway, my personal view is that sports drinks are safe and effective when used appropriately. So the problem isn't sports drinks per se, it's the exaggerated claims used in marketing them to the general public that's created the problem, leading many to believe they need them to perform at their best. The truth it's unlikely you'll benefit from using sports drinks unless you're a serious endurance athlete or have difficulty in consuming adequate CHO from food alone. And there is little if any benefit in prehydrating or "drinking ahead of your thirst" if you aren't a serious endurance athlete, and even then it's debatable whether the practice is of any real benefit.

[URL="http://www.kickthecan.info/files/documents/Cohen2012_BMJ_SportsDrinkIndus+Academia_Investigation_0.pdf"]The Truth About Sports Drinks.
Cohen D., BMJ 2012;345:e4737[/URL]

[URL="http://211.144.68.84:9998/91keshi/Public/File/38/345-7866/pdf/bmj.e4797.full.pdf"]Forty years of sports performance research and little insight gained.
Carl Heneghan et al. BMJ 2012;345:e4797[/URL]

[URL="http://211.144.68.84:9998/91keshi/Public/File/38/345-7866/pdf/bmj.e4868.full.pdf"]To drink or not to drink to drink recommendations: the evidence.
Yannis Pitsiladis, Lukas Beis. BMJ 2012;345:e4868[/URL]

[URL="http://www.kickthecan.info/files/documents/Noakes2012_BMJ_Commentary_HydrationExercise.pdf"]Commentary: role of hydration in health and exercise.
TD Noakes. BMJ 2012;344:e4171[/URL]

[b]*All links wfs*[/b]

Christopher Morris 02-21-2014 07:43 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Lynne -
I'll bite. I'm interested in Dr. Noakes' book after reading a couple of his things online. I looked him up since Coach referenced him in this thread.

I don't know if I'm the key demographic you're looking for to disseminate this knowledge. I'm a garage CrossFitter, and have almost zero interaction at an affiliate, so I don't rub shoulders with other Crossfitters on a regular basis. Still, I comment online. And I would appreciate very much a free read. Thanks!

Dakota Base 02-21-2014 09:16 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
[B]Lynne[/B] - I'd love to get a hard copy of Dr. Noakes book also. I have it on Kindle, but it's not quite the same, and i'd love to have it as a reference long term (not sure the Kindle will reach my expiration date).

Dakota Base 02-21-2014 09:38 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
[QUOTE=Coach;1220323]Dakota,

You're missing the point. You'll probably find it near impossible to make meaningful inputs without investigating the topic. Don't take my word for any of this, but don't shoot from the hip blindfolded either. You might want to start with the British Journal of Sport's Medicine's indictment of Gatorade and the ACSM - if you don't have the time to really read Noakes book. It's not an easy read for many and will take more than a few days to intelligently work through...[/QUOTE]

What I read from this is that you're calling anyone that isn't as passionate about your "war" on so-called "big soda" as yourself uneducated or unintelligent. You also wrongfully assume I haven't read "Waterlogged", and wrong to assume that it's so complex that a person like myself, whom you have no exposure to beyond this board and a facebook search, would have trouble understanding.

We all get to see companies either make mistakes or lie, or some blend of the two. Doctors used to endorse tobacco products, undoubtedly leading to thousands of deaths due to cancer, but the BEST MEDICAL SCIENCE at the time pointed to niccotine being good for the heart, and smoking had thousands of years of historical therapeutic use. And then we learned something new, and we have warning labels. That's not to say that "big tobacco" isn't guilty of corruption and knowingly producing a dangerous product.

But it's a crime I don't care to get passionate about, as cigarette use honestly doesn't effect me. It doesn't matter to me whether pepsi has rat poison in it or HFCS, I haven't had a soda since 1994. It doesn't matter to me whether tobacco products can be linked to cancer or not, I don't smoke and don't condone the practice in others. The indication of something bad for us is there, so why play with it?

Over-hydration deaths by blindly following recommendations are the same effect in my eyes. 20yrs ago when I lived on a coaches recommendation of a gallon of water per day, and a half gallon at practice, I felt like crap, so I cut back. As a wrestler, we were tracking water and weight gains, so I detailed closely how much I was taking in. I cut back, and about a pound of water was my "sweetspot". Low and behold, turns out that it's not by coincidence, as modern science revealed information about absoprtion rates, and now any endurance triathloner worth their salt will tell you that it's "20oz per hour".

As I stated before, know what you're drinking, and why you're drinking it, and assume anyone that profits from information skewed the information in their favor, and assume that anyone that DOESN'T profit from information may have made a mistake.

Andy Shirley 02-21-2014 11:49 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Lynne,
I'm interested in the Noakes book.

Russel K Olofson 02-22-2014 12:13 AM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Lynne,

We would be interested in the book if you have one to spare.

Andy Shirley 02-22-2014 12:13 AM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
As someone who deals with various sodium related issues on a pretty regular basis(central diabetes insipidus, SIADH, cerebral salt wasting) in the setting of critical care and brain injury, Gatorade is essentially free water as far as the serum sodium concerned. The amount of sodium and electrolytes is pretty negligible.

We do also see water intoxication(or exercise induce hyponatremia/encephalopathy) as it causes pretty nasty cerebral edema and brain death if severe enough.

Russell Greene 02-22-2014 12:38 AM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Dakota,

As best I can tell, your disagreement is not factual but personal. Gatorade's promotion of flawed hydration science and the deaths and sickness that followed do not bother you.

While I disagree, I doubt there's a logical means by which I can convince you to care about deaths from over-drinking.

I can only ask you this:

Knowing that the ACSM has promoted flawed hydration science, funded by Gatorade, that led to the deaths of at least a dozen and thousands of cases of hyponatremia, do you think the ACSM should continue to enjoy its place of authority in American exercise science?

Having committed such a base error, on what basis can the ACSM justify its continued existence?

[QUOTE=Dakota Base;1220419]What I read from this is that you're calling anyone that isn't as passionate about your "war" on so-called "big soda" as yourself uneducated or unintelligent. You also wrongfully assume I haven't read "Waterlogged", and wrong to assume that it's so complex that a person like myself, whom you have no exposure to beyond this board and a facebook search, would have trouble understanding.

We all get to see companies either make mistakes or lie, or some blend of the two. Doctors used to endorse tobacco products, undoubtedly leading to thousands of deaths due to cancer, but the BEST MEDICAL SCIENCE at the time pointed to niccotine being good for the heart, and smoking had thousands of years of historical therapeutic use. And then we learned something new, and we have warning labels. That's not to say that "big tobacco" isn't guilty of corruption and knowingly producing a dangerous product.

But it's a crime I don't care to get passionate about, as cigarette use honestly doesn't effect me. It doesn't matter to me whether pepsi has rat poison in it or HFCS, I haven't had a soda since 1994. It doesn't matter to me whether tobacco products can be linked to cancer or not, I don't smoke and don't condone the practice in others. The indication of something bad for us is there, so why play with it?

Over-hydration deaths by blindly following recommendations are the same effect in my eyes. 20yrs ago when I lived on a coaches recommendation of a gallon of water per day, and a half gallon at practice, I felt like crap, so I cut back. As a wrestler, we were tracking water and weight gains, so I detailed closely how much I was taking in. I cut back, and about a pound of water was my "sweetspot". Low and behold, turns out that it's not by coincidence, as modern science revealed information about absoprtion rates, and now any endurance triathloner worth their salt will tell you that it's "20oz per hour".

As I stated before, know what you're drinking, and why you're drinking it, and assume anyone that profits from information skewed the information in their favor, and assume that anyone that DOESN'T profit from information may have made a mistake.[/QUOTE]

Russell Greene 02-22-2014 12:39 AM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Deleted for redundancy.

Chris Cooper 02-22-2014 05:26 AM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Hi Lynne; hope you're well. I'd love a copy of Noakes' book.
For fun, here's the NSCA's own Sponsor Page, alias "Our Primary Johns."

SFW (maybe not for consumption) : [url]http://www.nsca.com/about-us/support-and-sponsors/[/url]

Brad Allen Jones 02-22-2014 07:29 AM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
[QUOTE=Jason Kelley;1220085]There was a study (quite recent) that used athletes and rehydrated them by IV so they could not 'taste' what they were 'drinking'.

Those who just got water performed as well as those who got some fancy electrolyte concoction.[/QUOTE]

Despite what many think, intravenous fluids are inferior to oral fluids in terms if hydration...by a lot. Not knocking what you said (although there could be flaws due to the fact that IVs already don't work that well), just wanted to point that out to some who might think IV is better.

Joshua J Grenell 02-22-2014 08:16 AM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Lynne,

We would be interested in the book if you have one to spare.

Thanks

JG

Matt Thomas 02-22-2014 08:21 AM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
[url]http://www.acsm.org/docs/brochures/selecting-and-effectively-using-hydration-for-fitness.pdf[/url] (wfs)

Well it seems like now the ACSM recommends 3-8 ounces every 15-20 minutes when exercising for over an hour and specifically warns against over hydration.

Darrell E. White 02-22-2014 11:37 AM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Hi Lynne,

Got Waterlogged on my iPad after Coach tipped me off to Noakes work, but agree with others who find hard copy helpful. I'd love to have one. Thanks.

Gonna be fun when this hits outside the CrossFit living room, eh?

--bingo

Kirez Reynolds 02-22-2014 12:10 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Lynne, I would like a copy of Waterlogged. Thank you!

Dakota Base 02-22-2014 12:29 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
[QUOTE=Russell Greene;1220433]Dakota,

As best I can tell, your disagreement is not factual but personal. Gatorade's promotion of flawed hydration science and the deaths and sickness that followed do not bother you.

While I disagree, I doubt there's a logical means by which I can convince you to care about deaths from over-drinking.[/QUOTE]

In the same form of "Coach's" response thread, you've retorted with insulting my intelligence and capacity for understanding.

While deaths from faulty data are tragic, I don't think the format in which you're fighting this "war" is productive, or ethical. Coach's arguement here is passing off that the ACSM/Gatorade are STILL promoting hyperhydration, which just isn't true.

I don't care who does the research, and have no personal interest in Gatorade, Crossfit, Coach, yourself, the ACSM, or any other dog in this fight. What I DO, however, find insulting to the intelligence of these readers, is that you'll come in and propose that the ACSM is guilty of ignoring evidence, when Matt Thomas produced evidence that the ACSM published information A YEAR PRIOR TO DR. NOAKES publication of "Waterlogged" that retracted and updated its previous stance. Comparing the "best information at hand" that a research group published 30yrs ago to "the best information at hand" today, and seeing a discrepancy like this suggests to me that they've made an effort to correct a past mistake.

Sure, maybe I'm not aware of other injustices that the ACSM has made to lie to the public, but this is not one of them. However, you are lying by implying that they ARE intentionally misleading the public into over-drinking.

I don't care which side wins, as long as the true science reaches the people that need it. But for your arguement aimed at taking down Gatorade and dethroning the ACSM, find a new arguement, because the battle of over-hydration recommendations is lost.

[QUOTE=Russell Greene;1220433]I can only ask you this:

Knowing that the ACSM has promoted flawed hydration science, funded by Gatorade, that led to the deaths of at least a dozen and thousands of cases of hyponatremia, do you think the ACSM should continue to enjoy its place of authority in American exercise science?

Having committed such a base error, on what basis can the ACSM justify its continued existence?[/QUOTE]

There may be (debatably ARE) other things that might cause me to villify the ACSM/Gatorade, but publishing "best information at hand", then retracting it and updating it when new "best information at hand" becomes available, No, I'm not going to hold that agaisnt them.

As I mentioned before, I recognize that products generate revenue, and research costs money, so by default, research will ALWAYS be funded by corporations like Gatorade, that have vested interests in the outcome of testing. If it's not Gatorade, then it'll be one of their competitors. I can say with confidence that it won't be a private, non-profitting organization.

Darby Lee Darrow 02-22-2014 01:43 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Lynne,

I would be interested in the book if you still have one to spare.

Christopher Morris 02-22-2014 06:22 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
[QUOTE=Brad Allen Jones;1220444]Despite what many think, intravenous fluids are inferior to oral fluids in terms if hydration...by a lot. Not knocking what you said (although there could be flaws due to the fact that IVs already don't work that well), just wanted to point that out to some who might think IV is better.[/QUOTE]

When I was in Iraq the medics would say, "Hey, I'm thirsty. Want to practice IV sticks?" and they would stick each other and take a liter of fluids. :yikes:

I was all, "Why not just drink a water bottle?" It's great that the medics wanted to hone their skills, but a water bottle is a less painful way to get hydrated.

Sean Rockett 02-22-2014 06:49 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Yes I believe over hydration is bad. I just want to make sure that people don't get afraid to hydrate and the pendulum does not swing too far after reading these posts, because yes there are times when renal failure can be prevented as well as heat stroke with fluid and intravenous fluid also. Sean

Michael Wuest 02-22-2014 07:58 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
Hi Lynne, I would appreciate a copy of the book, if there are any more available.

Thanks!

Jason David 02-22-2014 08:09 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
I always felt that people drink when they're thirsty and didn't need help to decide when to do so.

I'd also love a copy of the book Lynne.

Kevin Keast 02-22-2014 08:30 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
 
I'm interested in a copy of the book!


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