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Joey Dussel 02-24-2014 09:40 AM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
This is great! What timing! We were just talking about hydration in my Nutrition for Exercise course at the University and I was finding myself with some really quizzical facial expression while listening to the instructor speak about hydration recommendations. They didn't fit with the science...

Lynne, I'd like to get a copy of that book if possible.


Coach 02-24-2014 11:16 AM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
The science of hydration reduces to something wonderfully elegant...drink when you're thirsty and don't when you aren't.

Brian Chontosh 02-24-2014 01:24 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
Reading some of these posts compels me to offer some of my own thoughts. I certainly don’t think I can do any harm to this conversation at this point…

Most of what I am reading here is ‘sea lawyer’ information. No insult intended, but when does “my experience” or “I’ve always heard” or “works for me” start to replace research based data, analysis, and subsequent synthesis of information? Let’s call it science for convenience here. What’s even worse is when these pre-positioned comments aren’t included and just some random UNTRUTH follows and is perpetuated over and over. Let’s call this ignorance for convenience here.

I am not discounting anyone’s experiences here. But only when constructive conversation demands that individuals take a step back from thinking what they think they know and start asking serious questions to confirm or deny these thoughts will we get anywhere. Let's stop perpetuating ignorance. So much of the currently reported methods of hydration and salt replacement, electrolyte supplementation etc do in fact resonate with my experiences; both military and ultra endurance. However, I am at least broad enough to realize this doesn’t make them certainties. Nearly everything in Noakes’ claims makes a lot of sense and begs to be considered. Actually, his explanations for the mechanisms of causation vs. relation seem to fit just as well with my experiences, if not more enlightening. How many times in my past have I thought something worked for some created reason and only discover after the fact that it was more a coincidence or favorable side effect of an entirely different mechanism; convenient and coincidental, and thus decided to be regulated as personal fact? My point simply is asking to elevate yourself from your anecdotal definitives and get informed. Ask some questions and entertain critical thought analysis.

I agree with Dakota for sure --- in part. We can only hold the medical community and science accountable for what they should reasonably know as truth given the best information at hand and given the current state of events. When the world was flat and the sun revolved around the earth examples to argue this point acceptable. But here is my rub. Why the reluctance to recalculate the truth when compounding evidence begs for the question to be reconsidered? After pouring through Noakes’ book for 2 months; cross referencing citation and supporting studies, it baffles me why my average intelligence (no pretending or confusion about my station here) can see that some rudder steers should have been made much sooner during this course. Why wasn’t it? Several times in his book it is acknowledged that the ACSM has modified their language, albeit softly & craftily, and amended it’s recommendations. Even specific credit of such is given starting on pp329. (I will digress here and correct your comments regarding Matt Thomas. Congratulations to him for sure, but 1 year prior to the publication of a book is still over a decade after research was concluded and communications commenced). Now I don’t like admitting my faults any more than the next guy, but wouldn’t you think the Moral Obligation of an embodying organization responsible to the health of humans be compelled to have a touch less dragging of the feet? Shouldn’t we expect that out of them? If the British Journal of Sports Medicine, IMMDA and the USATF seem to find the ability to make swift corrections 3-5 years before the ACSM, wouldn’t that cause curiosity? Especially when effects were very favorable. If the ever cumbersome US Army and all of her behemoth bureaucratic procedures can recognize issue and make swift changes nearly 12 years sooner than an American College dedicated to Sports Medicine can, then WTF?

In my opinion Dakota you don’t necessarily have a dog in the fight or a true care since you have it figured out already. Or the issue doesn’t resonate at home as you so stated. This is surely fair. But, I call it fence sitting and a very comfortable place to offer thoughts and basic opinion. It does then beg you to ask serious questions, to get even more informed, or to sit and watch like a sheep. No making muddy of the waters. You used tobacco industry as an analogy so I’ll offer driving: What if I was a motorist in a 55, going downhill, windows up or down is your call. I’m obeying the speed limit and coming around the curve into a “school zone ahead” sign. I let off the gas, allowing my momentum to gradually reduce my speed to 43mph in the 25 and I’m still coasting/slowing down. I get flashed and pulled over to where I can begin to offer any number of BS at hand rationalizations. Might seem trite to you until it was your son in the crosswalk during my transgression. Now who do you want sponsoring traffic court? Moral Obligation and our Judicial System or GEICO? My bet is Bob and Diane Allen are looking for the former and not the GSSI.

The point is that new information at hand should have caused an immediate correction to at least error on the side of caution until further confirmation could occur. This would be consistent with the behavior of some one or some entity I expect/trust to preside in a capacity of authority. If consistency is a measure of integrity – then why didn’t this occur with the ACSM? Certainly they were not encumbered to change the hydration rules immediately and drastically at the front side of this issue back during the mid 70s? And ironically, there was less factual evidence at that moment pointing to a necessity for increased hydration, yet the modifications came mighty swift. Basically, you are defending the motorist who likes to accelerate to reach 55mph before he reaches the sign post despite still being in the school zone. It is called conflict of personal interest vs. greater responsibility.

I’m asking questions. I’m churning through research. And an awful lot of information is giving greater meaning to my experiences and what I thought was fact. Making comments about IVs vs. Bottled water, BCAAs and Taste, Pedialyte and Cramps all ignorant, juvenile, and pedestrian.

My suspicion is that there is a tremendous amount of financial leverage in play regarding research funding that is causing friction resisting what is just. The greater good is not served here. Dilute the authority/perceived stature/influence of the ACSM so that it reconciles what it truly is – an interest influenced and financed commodity - or remove the interest. Either way…

Sara Ochsner 02-24-2014 01:29 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
Interesting first post Brian.

Brian Chontosh 02-24-2014 01:53 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
I don't like to post, never felt compelled to share my thoughts or put myself out there. I typically read and have discussion with personal contacts I trust and respect. But this has been on my mind for a while and I'm feeling pretty passionate about it so will take a chance. Plus, I feel I have put respectable amount of time researching and can refrain from making uninformed statements.

I only promise to be courteous, honest, and authentic in my comments. I never will promise to be absolute, correct or all knowing. Your observation and comment of my first post leaves a lot to be interpreted in any direction.

This thread simply begged to be elevated to more critical thought and conversation.

Sara Ochsner 02-24-2014 02:00 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
That was all fairly evident Brian. That is why it is interesting.

Coach 02-24-2014 03:00 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
Let me recap CF Inc's position on and interest in this matter:

GSSI/Gatorade/ACSM scientists, all paid by Gatorade Inc., undertook a protracted and effective debasement of thermoregulatory science as a necessary step to debasing hydration science in support of new hydration guidelines that profited Gatorade Inc and resulted in at least a dozen deaths and serious injury to thousands.

Getting the science corrected took decades with GSSI/Gatorade/ACSM scientists fighting the correction the entire time. Even the GSSI/Gatorade/ACSM retreat from the deadly guidelines was conducted in an unconscionable manner that would support a product liability suit nicely.

I came to this understanding of the purchased bad science and surrounding intrigue only after hundreds of hours of reading much of the peer reviewed literature surrounding EAH, EAHE, AND peer reviewed literature published on the failings academic and moral of Gatorade in addition to extensive discussions for more than six months now with others professionally involved with the issues.

CF Inc's chief scientist's notes on this matter numbers over 600 pages taken from a careful reading of 206 technical papers. His conclusion is that the ACSM's behavior was "highly unethical resulting in deaths". He will tell you that this corruption continues to this day. He will be posting here shortly.

In case anyone wondered, it was academics in Sports Medicine and Exercise Science from the US, New Zealand, and South Africa that initially alerted me to Gatorade's perversion of sports science and medicine via the ACSM.

I believe that Gatorade and the ACSM killed people by faking science to sell product. I believe we can convince any thinking people of that anywhere we're given a chance to do so. I also believe it's my professional and personal obligation to bring this information first to my community and then the world.

Jeff Enge 02-24-2014 03:33 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
Why all this righteous indignation about overhydration? Why not use the clout you feel CrossFit has to go after something that is assuredly harming more people, say like alcohol or tobacco? Because every industry's research is funded by the entities that make money off of it, you haven't found something unique in its apparent insidiousness. That's just how bureaucuracy works. It's one of those double edged swords of capitalism.

Jeff Enge 02-24-2014 03:40 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
And if you want to look at the fitness industry only, how about supplement companies that have no regulation and put all manner of ineffective and even dangerous crap in their products, much of it unlisted in ingredient labels. That seems more dangerous to me.

Dale F. Saran 02-24-2014 06:57 PM

Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM
Matt - when your friends tell you they're going to raise money for cerebral palsy, are you the kind of guy who tells them it's stupid and asks why they're not raising money for cancer? I'm genuinely curious because that's your position, and Jeff's, too. Do you have anything constructive to add or do you plan on bringing up all of the other causes we should be addressing - in your mind - as more "worthy" of our efforts?

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