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-   -   "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship (http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=58139)

adam adkins 05-12-2010 11:36 AM

"Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
Cliff notes version:

CA State High School track meet comes down to the final pole vault. Girl clears 7'6 for the win. Crowd goes wild. Opposing coach points out that girl is wearing a friendship bracelet. Girl disqualified. Opposing coach's team now state champs.

Rules are rules or poor sportsmanship?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...rsy/index.html WFS!

Katherine Derbyshire 05-12-2010 12:14 PM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
For the league championship? Rules are rules.

Katherine

Brian Monk 05-12-2010 12:20 PM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
Nah, that other coach is a tool.

Katherine Derbyshire 05-12-2010 12:32 PM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Monk (Post 783019)
Nah, that other coach is a tool.

Yes, but. He still has a right to insist on the rules.

Katherine

John Scott Rezendes 05-12-2010 12:36 PM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
I'm with Brian. Is that really a victory you can savor? All wins are not created equal.

Michael Henry 05-12-2010 12:37 PM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire (Post 783013)
For the league championship? Rules are rules.

Katherine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Monk (Post 783019)
Nah, that other coach is a tool.

Both.

Rules are rules regardless of what you're playing for. People win by technicalities all the time. My bro-in-law is a criminal defense lawyer and gets people off on technicalities all of the time, but I can't stomach that as a way to make a (very good) living.

On the other hand, the coach is a ****** bag. He may not be ashamed of himself since he did what it took to win, but to pull a move like that after you are truly beaten is a d!ck move, hands down.

Sean Dunston 05-12-2010 12:38 PM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
rules are rules AND the coach is a dirtbag for calling the other girl out on the bracelet.

So in the Olympics (and qualifiers), women may wear jewelry, including necklaces with charms on them, but a girl in high school can't compete with a friggin friendship bracelet?

Give me a break.

all links wfs

http://www.bjreview.com.cn/olympic/i...0a145d6a03.jpg

http://images.loqu.com/contents/670/948/image/10.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/...qv9Y6/610x.jpg

Allen Tluczek 05-12-2010 12:59 PM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
1. Rules are rules. I mean, I probably would have mentioned it if I noticed it earlier.
2. ?
3. I don't think I would have actually tried to win on something like that. The coach is a DB.

Bob Schmidt 05-12-2010 01:37 PM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
The coach is a real ***. I'm glad SI brought this type of douch-baggery out to the public, same as they did with some of the other recent poor sportsmanship articles in youth sports.

I'm the type of person who goes after rules on the intent, rather than the letter of the law. I've lost a number of competitions (both serious and intramural-rec-type) because I don't want to seem petty over something minor. I've also won competitions on calling teams on major infractions (ie - players playing for multiple teams, egregious cheaters, etc...). In my eyes, if they still out-played me and the infraction didn't contribute to their victory, then good for them, they deserved it.

I don't know what the intent of that rule was (No jewelry), but I doubt it was meant for string bracelets like that. I always remeber being taught for refereeing soccer (where no jewelry is a rule as well) that I should consider the situation - a soft wristband is fine, but a studded bracelet, no. (DUH!) Dangling earings or long necklaces that could cut someone/get caught on someone are not ok, but small studs (taped up) or a small, tight necklace was fine.

If my child were coached by that guy, I'd let him know that my kid would no longer be working with him. It's pretty simple. I'd rather have character built through sport (as probably 99% of youth don't make sport into a career) than win a championship by technicality.

Craig Rogers 05-12-2010 06:03 PM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Schmidt (Post 783068)
The coach is a real ***. I'm glad SI brought this type of douch-baggery out to the public, same as they did with some of the other recent poor sportsmanship articles in youth sports.

I'm the type of person who goes after rules on the intent, rather than the letter of the law. I've lost a number of competitions (both serious and intramural-rec-type) because I don't want to seem petty over something minor. I've also won competitions on calling teams on major infractions (ie - players playing for multiple teams, egregious cheaters, etc...). In my eyes, if they still out-played me and the infraction didn't contribute to their victory, then good for them, they deserved it.

I don't know what the intent of that rule was (No jewelry), but I doubt it was meant for string bracelets like that. I always remeber being taught for refereeing soccer (where no jewelry is a rule as well) that I should consider the situation - a soft wristband is fine, but a studded bracelet, no. (DUH!) Dangling earings or long necklaces that could cut someone/get caught on someone are not ok, but small studs (taped up) or a small, tight necklace was fine.

If my child were coached by that guy, I'd let him know that my kid would no longer be working with him. It's pretty simple. I'd rather have character built through sport (as probably 99% of youth don't make sport into a career) than win a championship by technicality.

When I was a soccer ref the no bracelets rule came from a broken finger when it caught under the other guys bracelet as 2 people ran into each other.
The no ear rings came from a header that turned into a squirty bloody mess when an earring got jabbed into the side of a girls neck.
I was not there for either of them, but those were the stories I heard.
As a former coach I would never call an opposing team out on a rule like that. I always remind my team of the no jewelry rules though.

Charles Applin 05-12-2010 06:43 PM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
Well, the coach did say his team lost a match due to the same rule a few years earlier (girl wearing earrings during a relay). Hard to call him a dirtbag if he's merely wanting to enforce a rule that's been enforced on him.

What should be called into question are the morons that write these rules calling for disqualifications for violations like that. Eh, I gave up worrying about the over codification of sporting rules long ago. Some rules come about from a rare mishap, some due to counter-acting poor but legal sportsmanship, some just because a moron is in charge.

Eric R Cohen 05-13-2010 05:07 AM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Charles Applin (Post 783227)
Well, the coach did say his team lost a match due to the same rule a few years earlier (girl wearing earrings during a relay). Hard to call him a dirtbag if he's merely wanting to enforce a rule that's been enforced on him.

Actually, IMO, that makes him a bigger ****** bag AND a petty whiny baby. That's no defense. As a coach, it teaches your kids, "you don't have to be better if you can find a tiny loop hole" That Coach = Fail.

Casey Raiford 05-13-2010 05:41 AM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
If, as the SI article strongly suggested, he (probably) did see the bracelet on the girl's first attempt at the vault, then the more genuine act of good sportsmanship would have been to let her or the other coach know about it and the rule.

Brian LaFonte 05-13-2010 06:45 AM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
Rules are rules. She broke them, she has to face the consiquenses. Yes, it sucks for her, but her fault for not removing ALL jewlery. It is not a hard concept. The other coach is not a ****** for calling her out on it. All of the rules are in place for a reason. They have to be inforced or what is the point of having them. The rules are part of the game / sport. You can't false start and you can't wear jewlery. It is up to the participant and THIER coach to abide by the rules.

I put this on the girl and her coach. The other coach pointed out the infraction and she lost. Follow the rules and you won't have this problem.

Ian Peek 05-13-2010 07:17 AM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian LaFonte (Post 783398)
Rules are rules. ... I put this on the girl and her coach. The other coach pointed out the infraction and she lost. Follow the rules and you won't have this problem.

The onus is on the girl's coach to know and enforce the rules on his own team. I can understand how a HS senior would not know all of the rules, but her coach should, without question. He didn't enforce the rules and ask the girl to take off her bracelet, so his team lost.

In a sort-of similar situation, I used to play chess competitively. I have both won and lost on technicalities (time running out, etc.). That is INCREDIBLY frustrating, especially when you are the loser. If you don't like the rules, don't compete.

To put ourselves in their shoes, would we have done anything differently? A win is a win, outright or technical.

ian

Jason R O'Dell 05-13-2010 07:21 AM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
I prefer to win because I was better than the other person or because I was able to outplay them at that moment. Not because they spanked me while wearing a bracelet.

Casey Raiford 05-13-2010 07:25 AM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
Yeah that.

adam adkins 05-13-2010 08:29 AM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Casey Raiford (Post 783363)
If, as the SI article strongly suggested, he (probably) did see the bracelet on the girl's first attempt at the vault, then the more genuine act of good sportsmanship would have been to let her or the other coach know about it and the rule.

This is the part that bothers me - and it may come from the journalistic bias as the coach claims he did not actually see until after the jump.

As other posters have pointed out, rules come in only 2 forms; 1) prevent competitive advantage 2) safety of the participant.

That's it. There can be no other justification of a rule on the HS level.

Obviously the thread did not provide a competitive advantage so we can conclude that the intent of the rule is to protect the participant. In fact, another poster pointed out just how dangerous jewelry can be in a competitive event.

So if this friendship thread did actually cause a safety risk to the girl and the coach did see it before the jump (that is a big if) that means the coach placed his teams victory ahead of the girl's safety. That is a dangerous mind set, particularly for high school sports.

If you say, "Now let's not get ridiculous. That thread clearly didn't put the girl at risk." Then the rule itself can not be justified.

Brian LaFonte 05-13-2010 08:31 AM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason R O'Dell (Post 783421)
I prefer to win because I was better than the other person or because I was able to outplay them at that moment. Not because they spanked me while wearing a bracelet.

But you still win, based on following the rules of the game. If i win the 100m by false starting, but still spank you, are you going to give me the win? It is not a technicallity - it is a RULE. Follow the rules of the game and you win, fair and square. Tough lesson to learn, but I bet she will never forget it.

Jason R O'Dell 05-13-2010 08:43 AM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian LaFonte (Post 783481)
But you still win, based on following the rules of the game. If i win the 100m by false starting, but still spank you, are you going to give me the win? It is not a technicallity - it is a RULE. Follow the rules of the game and you win, fair and square. Tough lesson to learn, but I bet she will never forget it.

If I was able to turn down the victory then yes I would do so. If I couldn't then I would say to anyone that asked "I didn't really win." or "I sure don't feel like the winner."
But that's just me.

Sean Dunston 05-13-2010 08:53 AM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian LaFonte (Post 783481)
But you still win, based on following the rules of the game. If i win the 100m by false starting, but still spank you, are you going to give me the win? It is not a technicallity - it is a RULE. Follow the rules of the game and you win, fair and square. Tough lesson to learn, but I bet she will never forget it.

Apples and oranges.

Pole vault is the competitor against the bar. The one who goes over the highest bar wins.

The 100M dash is the competitor against the clock. The clock starts when the gun sounds and stops when the competitor crosses the finish line. The one to finish in the quickest time wins.

In your example, the comparison could only be made similar if the competitor who had the false start on the sprint, had a spring board or a lowered bar for the pole vault.

Not equivalent.

Katherine Derbyshire 05-13-2010 09:19 AM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Peek (Post 783416)
In a sort-of similar situation, I used to play chess competitively. I have both won and lost on technicalities (time running out, etc.). That is INCREDIBLY frustrating, especially when you are the loser. If you don't like the rules, don't compete.

We could argue about whether winning on time is a technicality, but this isn't the place. I've been on both sides of the touch-move rule changing the outcome, though.

I once caught a 10-year old kid cheating -- using his scoresheet to keep track of future moves -- and got him forfeited. I felt bad for about 30 seconds, until the TD explained that the kid was using the event as a warmup for Nationals and probably had more experience than I did.

Katherine

Tony Black 05-13-2010 09:38 AM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
Quote:

“In a state where corruption abounds, laws must be very numerous.”
- Publius Cornelius Tacitus


From wiki -

Quote:

Political corruption is the use of legislated powers by government officials for illegitimate private gain.

Win by lawyer, win by skill and effort. Whats the difference? ;)


Yes the children must understand the rules or ANARCHY will reign and the downfall of civilisation will shortly ensue :p

Tim Barker 05-13-2010 10:00 AM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
The guy is a ******. It is the girl and her coach's fault that she wore it. It is the other coach's fault for not pointing it out before she made the second attempt.

You know the winning team will leave that part out of the story in 10 years when they talk about winning the championship though.

Brian LaFonte 05-13-2010 10:01 AM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
A win is a win, as long as you don't cheat to get there. I play dirty and play to win. Any advantage I can have over my oponent, i will take, as long as it is allowed. If I still lose, I will shake their hand and train better and harder for the next opportunity. The girl that lost can learn from this and become a better competitor.

Also, I am comparing rules to rules. By stating that a false start is different from wearing jewlery, you are ranking the rules. Both = disqualification. That is what is set in place by the host of the meet. No difference.

Please keep in mind that i feel for the girl that lost. Her coach should have been more strict on his athletes. Our coach would not let us off the bus with jewlery on. If caught with it, we ran more later.

Jason R O'Dell 05-13-2010 11:48 AM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian LaFonte (Post 783543)
The girl that lost can learn from this and become a better competitor.

That's funny because she was the best competitor. She won. She was the best at the given task. How can this make her a better competitor when she was the best?

Jamie J. Skibicki 05-13-2010 12:01 PM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
"That's funny because she was the best competitor. She won. She was the best at the given task. How can this make her a better competitor when she was the best?"

Because she lost. Michelle Wi (sp) lost a tournament becuase she didn't fill in her card correctly. She played golf better than everyone else but still lost.

Jason R O'Dell 05-13-2010 12:07 PM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamie J. Skibicki (Post 783620)
"That's funny because she was the best competitor. She won. She was the best at the given task. How can this make her a better competitor when she was the best?"

Because she lost. Michelle Wi (sp) lost a tournament becuase she didn't fill in her card correctly. She played golf better than everyone else but still lost.

She lost due to a technicality. I'm sure in most people's eyes she still one. She was the better athlete on that day for sure. So I don't see how taking off a bracelet makes her a better competitor. It's not going to affect her athletic performance one way or another.

Sean Dunston 05-13-2010 12:11 PM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian LaFonte (Post 783543)
Also, I am comparing rules to rules. By stating that a false start is different from wearing jewlery, you are ranking the rules. Both = disqualification. That is what is set in place by the host of the meet. No difference.

Actually, I'm not ranking the rules. And what you said is not true - at least not all of the time. Ordinarily, in a false start just means that the competitors go back to the starting line and they have a re-start. SOMETIMES the one who has been called on the false start is DQ'd but that is not always the case.

My gripe is not with you, so let's just leave it there.

My gripe is with the coach that called the rule, and when and how he did it. Regardless of what he said AFTER THE FACT, I find it incredibly difficult to believe that he was unaware of the girl's friendship bracelet prior to her jump. This is bolstered by his supporting statement later that he had been called on the same rule in his prior years as a coach. I am more apt to believe that he's been itching to call out this rule against his opposition for his entire career - since it happened to him. It just so happened that the opportune moment was when his team had been beaten on the field and the only way he could win was by DQing the team that proved to be superior on the field.

Additionally, coaches tend to know who the best competitor is on their own team and on their opponent's team. Again, since she was the best pole vaulter on the opponent's team I am sure he'd scoped her out well in advance of her actual jump. Remember - by his own words he's been coaching track and field for 30 years.

The appropriate time, and the time to prove his good sportsmanship, to call the "jewelry" to the other coach's attention would be WELL BEFORE she made the jump.

What he should have done was told the opposing coach of a potential rule violation with the girl's bracelet, and left it up to the coach to speak to the girl. The way he actually did it, however, was classless.

Jamie J. Skibicki 05-13-2010 12:11 PM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
How does not filling out the card correctly change Michelle's ability to golf?

Or forgetting to ask for a weight in a weightlifting meet?

Those are the rules and if you don't follow them you lose. And why was there no discression in this rule? There are alot of rules that are left up to a judging body or person to decide. This seems like one of them.

Sean Dunston 05-13-2010 12:32 PM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
hmmm...

Quote:

Laird walked back to the top of the runway, gained her composure, then took off again. This time everything was in sync. She planted the pole, lifted herself into the air and soared easily over the bar to give her team a 66-61 victory. While half the crowd cheered and the other half groaned, Monrovia coach Mike Knowles reacted by pointing to his wrist and gesturing toward Laird, who was wearing a thin, colorful string bracelet.

"This is my 30th year coaching track," Knowles said a few days later. "I know a lot of rules and regulations."

The rule in this case -- Section 3, Article 3 of the National Federation of State High School Associations -- is clear: "Jewelry shall not be worn by contestants." So is the penalty, and in the time it takes to read "the competitor is disqualified from the event," South Pasadena's win was transformed into a 65-62 victory for Monrovia.
From the American Heritage Dictionary:
Quote:

jew·el·ry audio (jl-r) KEY

NOUN:

Ornaments, such as bracelets, necklaces, or rings, made of precious metals set with gems or imitation gems.
Merriam-Webster:
Quote:

Main Entry: jew·el·ry
Pronunciation: \ˈjü-əl-rē, ˈjül-rē, ˈju̇l-; ÷ˈjü-lə-rē\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century

: jewels; especially : objects of precious metal often set with gems and worn for personal adornment
Seems like the coach for South Pasadena might have an argument on his behalf that the band of cloth worn on the wrist of his athlete, previously described by the opposing coach from Monrovia as "jewelry," is not in fact jewelry, and his athlete should be reinstated, and his team should be awarded the Championship.

ohh - and the coach from Monrovia should go take a flying leap at a rolling doughnut.

Charles Applin 05-13-2010 04:30 PM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
I'm reminded of an episode of Frasier where the brothers are getting in a tizzy over rules and by-laws at their wine club. One old man he really just wanted to come and drink wine.

My beef is with the rule itself. There's nothing about wearing jewelry that should call for disqualification. I agree it's a safety issue, and could be a major one should it get caught on the pole. Still, you give the participant a warning to remove it and if they refuse to do so then remove them from the event. If I'm refereeing high school football and see a player with his mouth guard dangling out, I call a time out on his team and get him to put it in. I don't disqualify the team or kick him off the field unless he refuses to put in the mouth guard. In both cases, the common sense approach is a warning that demands compliance.

Track, football and most other sports are dangerous so there's a lot of safety rules. As pointed out above,to disqualify a member for a safety violation AFTER THE FACT means you allowed that member to risk safety during the event. That says more about the dependability of the coaches and judges than about the skill of the young lady.

Jamie J. Skibicki 05-13-2010 04:55 PM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
Sport billy never broke the rules and he always one

Eric R Cohen 05-13-2010 04:56 PM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamie J. Skibicki (Post 783620)
"That's funny because she was the best competitor. She won. She was the best at the given task. How can this make her a better competitor when she was the best?"

Because she lost. Michelle Wi (sp) lost a tournament becuase she didn't fill in her card correctly. She played golf better than everyone else but still lost.

Large amounts of money were at stake. Big difference.

Jamie J. Skibicki 05-13-2010 04:59 PM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
The point with Wi was that what made her lose had little to do with her ability to play golf. I dislike the rule in question and how it was enforced, i like the earlier suggestion of a warning then removal. But this is hardly the first time a rule which has little to do with the competition itself caused an upset

Tony Black 05-14-2010 04:17 PM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamie J. Skibicki (Post 783761)
But this is hardly the first time a rule which has little to do with the competition itself caused an upset

So that makes this rather petty and id argue morally corrupt decision ok? :smiley_ev

Ian Smith 05-16-2010 10:49 AM

Re: "Rules are rules" vs Sportsmanship
 
"Smokey this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one who [cares] about the rules?"

You have to take the rules seriously.

Link not WFS (language) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiQmQhA-OrM#t=50s


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