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-   -   T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit (http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=38880)

Brandon Oto 11-14-2008 04:22 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Budding (Post 446848)
Brandon Oto wrote, "And you certainly can't change it to say "physical competence across broad time and modal domains," which is a radically different thing." Actually, it's the identical concept. You can't have work capacity without physical competence, and physical competence is nothing other than work capacity.

If that's all you're saying, then I have no objection. My beef is with the reduction of physical competence to NOTHING MORE than work capacity, because while all physical tasks require "work" in a banal sense -- otherwise they wouldn't be "physical" -- not all of them use work as their fundamental metric, insofar as doing more work is how they're improved. "Conditioning"-type activities like metcons and marathons fit this metric well; if you do more work faster, you're more fit. But the point of the examples I've been throwing out, like walking a tightrope or winning a football game, is that while work is involved in these, it is quite beside the point. The way you excel in these activities is not by improving your ability to do more work, and the guy who did the most work is not the winner. Trying to reduce these activities to "volume of work" or "power" is literally missing the point; it's like measuring a car's performance by how many times the wheels rotate.

If "physical competence" is all you're getting as, as you seem to suggest above, then I have no problem with this definition... except that by using the work capacity definition, you tend to bias the program towards protocols that emphasize, well, work. Which is why CrossFit is characterized by sweaty metcons rather than anything else. It's not that it does nothing else; it's that it focuses on that aspect, which makes perfect sense if your definition of fitness is "work capacity."


Quote:

Originally Posted by George Noble (Post 446846)
We can take you from a 200 pound max deadlift to a 500-750 pound max deadlift in two years while only pulling max singles four or five times a year.

I'm wondering if the upper bound has ever actually happened.

Absolutely unquestionably never ever.

Tom Woodward 11-14-2008 04:23 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq (Post 446866)
What real world scenarios exactly are the WOD's mimmicking?

Catch a flight with your family while carrying all the bags.
Help your friend move into third story apartment with no elevator.
Jump a fence to save time.
Carry someone out of a burning building.
Whatever.

Greg Amundson can do all those things more efficiently than me.

Really enjoyed your post, Tony.

Tony Budding 11-14-2008 05:06 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Phillip,
Show me any correlation in any sporting event that has finish ranks identical to VO2max ranks. That's my point. You can have a huge VO2max and finish poorly in all competitions.

The CrossFit WODs are excellent predictors of real world capacity. I guarantee that anyone with a sub-3 Fran, sub-4 Diane, sub-8 Helen, +400 Fight Gone Bad, sub-12 Nancy will be quite competent in almost any real world activity. These examples of tightrope walking and sword fighting are not in my world. I don't know of a single person who has needed to walk a tightrope or fight with a sword involuntarily or in the course of their daily life.

Any single test of fitness is just one single test. It is necessarily at a single time domain and with a limited number of modes. It is only in a wide variety of modes and time domains that we get an approximation of a genuine fitness capacity. And this, as I said earlier, cannot be done in a single assessment.

Metrics like VO2, VJ, Anerobic power are irrelevant because they are correlates only. Can you have someone with a huge VO2max as measured on a bike who can't complete Diane as Rx'd? Of course. Do you have someone who can complete Diane as Rx'd who can't ride 100miles on a bike? I doubt it. Are they going to beat the cyclist at a bike race? Probably not (but maybe!). Of course, most athletes with huge capacity are going to have great VO2 etc. But VO2 is not the goal, fitness, or capacity, is.

Brandon Oto 11-14-2008 05:35 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Budding (Post 446915)
Phillip,
Show me any correlation in any sporting event that has finish ranks identical to VO2max ranks. That's my point. You can have a huge VO2max and finish poorly in all competitions.

The CrossFit WODs are excellent predictors of real world capacity. I guarantee that anyone with a sub-3 Fran, sub-4 Diane, sub-8 Helen, +400 Fight Gone Bad, sub-12 Nancy will be quite competent in almost any real world activity.

Tony,

Do you know of any sporting event that has finish ranks identical (or correlated at all) with CrossFit WoDs?

Not confrontational, just curious; it seems to me the same principle you applied to VO2 can be applied here.

Thanks for dropping in here, by the way.

Justin Z. Smith 11-14-2008 06:27 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Budding (Post 446848)
...
Who won the race is a better question. Asking who is fittest is like asking which is the best race car? To answer that question, you have to ask for which race?
...

Hi,

In this cool video from 10/27/08, http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/C...ssWhooping.wmv (safe for family, work, etc.), both competitors did great, and the child won. From this, do people conclude that the child is more fit than the man?

Another question is, with all the modifications the man had to do (run while carrying plate, pullups with extra weight), how do you compare the times anyway?


Thanks,

Justin

Phillip Garrison 11-14-2008 07:07 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Woodward (Post 446890)
Catch a flight with your family while carrying all the bags.
Help your friend move into third story apartment with no elevator.
Jump a fence to save time.
Carry someone out of a burning building.
Whatever.

Greg Amundson can do all those things more efficiently than me.

Really enjoyed your post, Tony.


Lots of protocols will prepare for you that as well or better. I'd rather have a powerlifter or weightlifter help me move than cf'r. How often when carrying bags to the terminal do you do repeated cleans with it for time?

Phillip Garrison 11-14-2008 07:09 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Budding (Post 446915)
Phillip,
Show me any correlation in any sporting event that has finish ranks identical to VO2max ranks. That's my point. You can have a huge VO2max and finish poorly in all competitions.

Ok every tour de france Lance Armstrong or Gregg Le Mond won, or every national record held by Steve Prefontaine. Show me endurance races won by people with low to moderate VO2 maxes, or anaerobic races won by athletes with low lactate thresholds. The metrics you claim prove nothing have been shown to predict athletic success far more than a Fran has. Unless you can show me a study or anecdotal evidence correlating Fran time to performance in an athletic event. Not doing well on a Fran can be likely due to inexperience doing it. Would a excellent Fran score automatically correlate to an excellent rugby performance?

Casey Raiford 11-14-2008 07:11 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq (Post 446995)
Lots of protocols will prepare for you that as well or better. I'd rather have a powerlifter or weightlifter help me move than cf'r. How often when carrying bags to the terminal do you do repeated cleans with it for time?



I've routinely deployed with ten or more parabags weighing 50+ pounds each on commercial air. I've also seen a lot of families carry damn near as much luggage as well. Hauling bags of mulch is in the same ballpark.

Phillip Garrison 11-14-2008 07:15 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Casey Raiford (Post 447000)
I've routinely deployed with ten or more parabags weighing 50+ pounds each on commercial air. I've also seen a lot of families carry damn near as much luggage as well. Hauling bags of mulch is in the same ballpark.

Doing strongman training would better prep you for that. Why not train in the 3000m steeple chase just in case you have to run for your life through the woods jumping over small logs and bushes, or cross country in case you're house catches on fire and you need to escape into the forrest.

Casey Raiford 11-14-2008 07:17 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Nice try.


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