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-   -   Training for Power without Olympic Lifts (https://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=44859)

Ryan Whitley 04-01-2009 05:46 AM

Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
What exercises can be used to develop power besides the Olympic lifts? I thought of dumbell variants of Olympic lifts and plyometrics. Any other movements that might be helpful?

Christian Mason 04-01-2009 07:05 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
Any movement with an explosive component will help develop power (but the Olympic lifts are arguably one of the best methods)

Push Presses, Push Jerks (do they count as o-lifts?), wall ball, box jumps, jump squats, jingle-jangles.

I've heard coaches (and at least one study) recommend heavy barbell jump shrugs for athletes who don't have time to learn proper O-lift form, but want some of the training benefits.

Depending on the nature of your sport you could also look at some of the Louis Simmons/Westside barbell stuff they do on a speed day such as explosive sets with chains, weight releasers, etc..

Brian Bedell 04-01-2009 07:29 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
Power = load x distance/time. Not sure how you can increase your power better then with an oly lift. Why do you want subs? Just do the darn oly lifts, use the dumbbells if you have to, or for variety. Thrusters I guess would be good too. Squat and DL of course too.

Ryan Whitley 04-01-2009 07:45 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
[QUOTE=Brian Bedell;556145]Power = load x distance/time. Not sure how you can increase your power better then with an oly lift. Why do you want subs? Just do the darn oly lifts, use the dumbbells if you have to, or for variety. Thrusters I guess would be good too. Squat and DL of course too.[/QUOTE]

The question isn't is there a better way to develop power than oly lifts. I agree that oly lifts are the best tool for developing power. But they require a barbell with bumper plates. I have these in my garage, I don't have them at my in-laws' house. I don't have them on deployment. I don't have them when I have to use a globo gym.

Do you mean speed sets with squats and dl's?

Jamie J. Skibicki 04-01-2009 07:47 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
YOu could also throw things of various weights for some combination of distance and height. When you are on deployment, you can use a sandbag (sea bags work great for this) can be used instead of the barbell.

Justin Gross 04-01-2009 07:58 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
You can still do the movements w/o a barbell. You gotta be resourceful, find odd objects, pick them up off the ground and put them over your head. Rocks, your pack, tires, a loaded seabag. Use what you have around. That's what it's all about.

Phillip Garrison 04-01-2009 11:20 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
Power is simply about moving weight at speed and going for triple extension for the lower body. Any of the exercises they listed can achieve improvements in power.

Jacob Cloud 04-01-2009 11:33 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
Throw stuff.

Bert Brams 04-01-2009 12:24 PM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
Many ways to skin a cat ...

Box squats are one way(whether or not you use bands and/or chains is up to you).

The same things applies for deadlifts. Using the dynamic effort popularized by Westside(using around 50-60% of your max, but doing very explosive reps for multiple sets)is extremely effective for both squats, deadlifts and benches.

Various box jumps are great too.

Joe Defranco used all of the above and seldom uses the o-lifts with his athletes.

Do a search on Elitefts.com in the articles section for more about this. Joe Defranco also has some interesting articles and q&a on his website about this.

Here's a seminar in which Simmons explains why he thinks the o-lifts aren't good for sports and why box squats are better(also posted on this forum):

[url]http://macthrowvideo2.com/2006NTCALS.wmv[/url] (wfs)

"In my opinion, Olymic lifts [full, not hang] are not good for sports. Why? Because you have a controlled first pull... The first pull is controlled so you don't distort the second pull... But show me a sport where you have a slow first step; I'll show you a kid sitting on the sidelines."

Jason R O'Dell 04-01-2009 12:28 PM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
Hmmmm, that's good advice Bert.

I'm someone that needs to build explosive power for sports but I can't clean and jerk or snatch. I've never been properly taught and I'm not one to teach myself or learn from a book. So until someone teaches me I'm really stuck not being able to use it.
However I bench, squat and deadlift. Applying more explosiveness to the lifts could be helpful and I may give it a shot. Though I already generally try to explode up on my bench and squats. I rarely do them slow. As far as DL's, I just kind of move at a normal speed. And I'm always explosive with my push presses and swings.
I guess if you try to be explosive in all your workouts that should build the kind of power you need for sports.

Throwing heavy stuff sounds like a good workout too!

Jason R O'Dell 04-01-2009 12:30 PM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
[QUOTE=Bert Brams;556443]Many ways to skin a cat ...

Box squats are one way(whether or not you use bands and/or chains is up to you).
[/QUOTE]

Wait, how would you use bands or chains? I thought a box squat was where you sat on a box then exploded back onto your feet.

Phillip Garrison 04-01-2009 12:34 PM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
Put bands on the end of the barbell, makes it hard to pop up off the box.

Jason R O'Dell 04-01-2009 12:35 PM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
[QUOTE=Phillip Garrison;556453]Put bands on the end of the barbell, makes it hard to pop up off the box.[/QUOTE]

Sweet. Now if only my globo had a box for me to sit on. They have chairs, I wonder if that'd be too low or just the right height for this lift?

Jacob Cloud 04-01-2009 12:37 PM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
[QUOTE=Jason R O'Dell;556458]Sweet. Now if only my globo had a box for me to sit on. They have chairs, I wonder if that'd be too low or just the right height for this lift?[/QUOTE]

What's your BW and BS right now?

Andrew H. Meador 04-01-2009 12:40 PM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
Simmons doesn't know what he's talking about as regards the olympic lifts. You can debate the technique [I]ad nauseam[/I] but olympic lifters are phenomenal athletes. As a group, they are the most impressive athletes to me, possibly after gymnasts but ahead of climbers, wrestlers, cyclists of various persuasions, and even sprinters. They can move their bodies through space with exceptional speed.

Bert Brams 04-01-2009 12:42 PM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
Here's an example:

[URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kkAMRZO0rw[/URL][B][COLOR=Red]YOU MUST ENSURE YOU ANNOTATE ALL LINKS WHETHER WORK AND FAMILY SAFE.[/COLOR][/B]

There are many ways to use chains and bands, but don't worry about those yet. First learn how to box squat properly and move up in weight from there on.
Look on the Elitefts website, tons of articles. Also, the Westside Seminar tapes are the best stuff you'll find on the instruction.

On the main Crossfit site Dave Tate also explains a few more reasons why box squats are great.

[URL]http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFitJournal_TateBox1Pre.mov[/URL][B][COLOR=Red]YOU MUST ENSURE YOU ANNOTATE ALL LINKS WHETHER WORK AND FAMILY SAFE.[/COLOR][/B]

As for boxes, I had two made out of strong wood. I use rubber tiles to move them up or down in height.

You can easily make one yourself, but make sure it's strong enough(and at a proper height, not above parallel).

In the meantime you can probably use a bench at your gym. Chairs are not strong enough.

Jason R O'Dell 04-01-2009 12:42 PM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
[QUOTE=Jacob Cloud;556462]What's your BW and BS right now?[/QUOTE]

My bodyweight is 255. What's BS?
I can only squat 245 total.

Jason R O'Dell 04-01-2009 12:43 PM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
[QUOTE=Bert Brams;556474]
In the meantime you can probably use a bench at your gym. Chairs are not strong enough.[/QUOTE]
Ah, just making sure the bench wasn't too low.

Jacob Cloud 04-01-2009 12:49 PM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
[QUOTE=Jason R O'Dell;556475]My bodyweight is 255. What's BS?
I can only squat 245 total.[/QUOTE]

This is a whole different argument but I'd say stick with normal back squats (BS) for awhile.

Skylar Cook 04-01-2009 05:37 PM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
[QUOTE=Andrew H. Meador;556469]Simmons doesn't know what he's talking about as regards the olympic lifts. You can debate the technique [I]ad nauseam[/I] but olympic lifters are phenomenal athletes. As a group, they are the most impressive athletes to me, possibly after gymnasts but ahead of climbers, wrestlers, cyclists of various persuasions, and even sprinters. They can move their bodies through space with exceptional speed.[/QUOTE]

Lifters are absolutely amazing athletes [U]in their events[/U]. They're amazing as LIFTERS, but perhaps not the best throwers, sprinters, or [I](insert any sport other than lifting here)[/I]ers around. You can be impressed by them and consider them amazing athletes, but that doesn't mean that their training is the best for a thrower or soccer player.

Simmons has a good point about the controlled first pull IMO. Hang lifts, I think, are much more useful for sports.

Blair Robert Lowe 04-02-2009 01:54 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
Coming from a thread on PM about training sprinters, the point was made that NOTHING equals the amount of force generated per time as sprinting. Barry Ross and [URL="http://www.BearPowered.com?"]http://www.BearPowered.com?[/URL] w/f safe. This same thread was concerning an article on DragonDoor about DLing improving sprint speed.

Bert, your time and lifts are very impressive. Damn, man.

Without Oly lifts.

Pistols, particulary pistol jumps or weighted pistols or weighted pistol jumps. Sled/Tractor pulls, plyometric series ( box jumps for 20 feet or depth jump, jump up to box ).

Weighted runs if you can't rig up a sled. Get a backup and fill it up similar to a ruck march.

One foot/leg hops, running jumps. Jumping lunges or duckwalks.

Med ball Overhead behind the back throws, sprint to catch up to it. Any of the Olympic throwing events ( hammer, discus, shot ).

S.S. 04-02-2009 02:30 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
Yes, I was waiting for someone to mention sprinting. For power, the best thing to do are distances 100m or less, with the occasional set of 200's. There's a reason the NFL combine uses the 40yd as a measure of speed/power.

Jason Lopez-Ota 04-02-2009 03:17 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
Jump squats with weight.

Daniel Higgins 04-02-2009 09:07 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
Olympic lifts are certainly explosive, and they have obviously the greatest ROM, but if you're looking for practical/functional lifts, most of the powerlifts and hybrids (PP, DB snatch, clean variations, etc) will give explosive power for very functional ROMs.

If you want explosive power in your powerlifts, Westside's dynamic effort (DE) days are what develops that. Stuff like speed benching, adding chains, adding bands, speed pulls, box squats...you name it.

If you mix those "hybrid" lifts (not sure what to call them) plus speed powerlifting, you should be good to go. Remember the ideal way to powerlift is to have a slow descending motion and explosive ascending.

Sam Ser 04-02-2009 09:23 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
[QUOTE=Bert Brams;556443]Here's a seminar in which Simmons explains why he thinks the o-lifts aren't good for sports and why box squats are better(also posted on this forum):

[url]http://macthrowvideo2.com/2006NTCALS.wmv[/url] (wfs)

"In my opinion, Olymic lifts [full, not hang] are not good for sports. Why? Because you have a controlled first pull... The first pull is controlled so you don't distort the second pull... But show me a sport where you have a slow first step; I'll show you a kid sitting on the sidelines."[/QUOTE]

hmm... a controlled first pull never happens in sport, but holding a ridiculous weight on your back, sitting down into a squat onto a box and standing back up DOES?! which sport is that?

:)

David Boyle 04-02-2009 09:24 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
This has more than likely been said....can't go wrong w/ kettlebell snatch's, swings, and jerks.

Sam Ser 04-02-2009 09:30 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
[QUOTE=Shane Skowron;556920]Yes, I was waiting for someone to mention sprinting. For power, the best thing to do are distances 100m or less, with the occasional set of 200's. There's a reason the NFL combine uses the 40yd as a measure of speed/power.[/QUOTE]

yes, but it isn't necessarily a good reason. the validity of the 40-yard dash as a predictive measure of success in the nfl has been absolutely eviscerated. (for example, jerry rice, terrell owens, michael irvin and emmitt smith were "slow," while dozens of wash-outs turned in blazing times in the 40.)

in fact -- and this actually strengthens your argument, by the way -- it has been said many times that the first 10 yards are the most important for most positions. and that's all about power.

Sam Ser 04-02-2009 09:33 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
how about tire flips? high box jumps? burpee pull-ups with a high bar?

love the suggestion of throwing a med ball behind yourself and sprinting to get it. awesome combination.

Phillip Garrison 04-02-2009 10:03 PM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
[QUOTE=Sam Ser;557187]yes, but it isn't necessarily a good reason. the validity of the 40-yard dash as a predictive measure of success in the nfl has been absolutely eviscerated. (for example, jerry rice, terrell owens, michael irvin and emmitt smith were "slow," while dozens of wash-outs turned in blazing times in the 40.)

in fact -- and this actually strengthens your argument, by the way -- it has been said many times that the first 10 yards are the most important for most positions. and that's all about power.[/QUOTE]

The validity of the NFL combine in general to predict success in the NFL has been questioned lately.

S.S. 04-03-2009 02:09 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
I didn't say it was a measure of predictive success. I said it was a measure of speed/power. It's kind of hard to debate that one.

Blair Robert Lowe 04-03-2009 03:18 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
I think Roger Harrell introduced me to the Overhead Med ball throws. It's a bit like a snatch.

I used to have to sprint to it so it woudn't crash into the stereo. That would be bad.

Pedro Nabais 04-03-2009 03:37 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
Ballet dancing!!!

Don't laugh people, ballet dancers don't use weights and have tremendous explosive power, just go watch some ballet on youtube and you'll get the point.

Ever since I went to a ballet show last month I've been thinking in how to include some ballet training in my skill practice, power and agility would sure improve greatly.

Sam Ser 04-03-2009 07:05 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
[QUOTE=Pedro Nabais;557809]Ballet dancing!!!

Don't laugh people, ballet dancers don't use weights and have tremendous explosive power, just go watch some ballet on youtube and you'll get the point.

Ever since I went to a ballet show last month I've been thinking in how to include some ballet training in my skill practice, power and agility would sure improve greatly.[/QUOTE]


herschel walker -- undoubtedly an extraordinary athlete -- practiced ballet during his professional playing days. he also practiced martial arts. and did hundreds or even thousands of push-ups and sit-ups per day, at some point. word is he hadn't touched a weight until he got to the university of georgia, yet despite that he was one of the most gifted natural athletes college football had ever seen. there's a story about him lifting a car off an old lady or something like that. now he does mma, and he's still in awesome shape well into his 40s.

...come to think of it, a video of herschel walker and chuck carswell going head-to-head in a WOD would be A-W-E-S-O-M-E!

:lightbulb

make it happen, HQ!

Stephen Flamm 04-03-2009 07:33 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
Never understood the slow-first-pull-not-translating-to-sport argument. Baseball, tennis, and golf all have slow, controlled motions setting up explosive bursts. Football, too, if you're a punter or kicker.

Gerhard Lavin 04-03-2009 07:39 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
[QUOTE=Pedro Nabais;557809]Ballet dancing!!!

Don't laugh people, ballet dancers don't use weights and have tremendous explosive power, just go watch some ballet on youtube and you'll get the point.

Ever since I went to a ballet show last month I've been thinking in how to include some ballet training in my skill practice, power and agility would sure improve greatly.[/QUOTE]

A lot of male ballet dancers lift weights as well. They need the upper body strength for lifts. funnily enough a lot of the lifts have a similar technique to the clean and jerk.

That said ballet training requires 1000's of hours of practice. My wife was a professional ballerina and her rehearsal schedule used to run to 40-60 hours per week. While a ballet class a week may help with power production it would in no way replace a weights program including oly lifting, squat jumps or plyometrics.

S.S. 04-03-2009 07:42 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
[QUOTE=Stephen Flamm;557902]Never understood the slow-first-pull-not-translating-to-sport argument. Baseball, tennis, and golf all have slow, controlled motions setting up explosive bursts. Football, too, if you're a punter or kicker.[/QUOTE]

Hockey too - slap shot.

Phillip Garrison 04-03-2009 11:24 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
[QUOTE=Pedro Nabais;557809]Ballet dancing!!!

Don't laugh people, ballet dancers don't use weights and have tremendous explosive power, just go watch some ballet on youtube and you'll get the point.

Ever since I went to a ballet show last month I've been thinking in how to include some ballet training in my skill practice, power and agility would sure improve greatly.[/QUOTE]

Ballet dancers are very explosive

Robert Wolf 04-03-2009 12:06 PM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
[QUOTE=Stephen Flamm;557902]Never understood the slow-first-pull-not-translating-to-sport argument. Baseball, tennis, and golf all have slow, controlled motions setting up explosive bursts. Football, too, if you're a punter or kicker.[/QUOTE]

Exactly! Thai kicks, some punching cadences...some people just hate the OL's because they suck at coaching and doing them. That said, there are loads of ways to tinker this, folks have mentioned them. Complex training is fun/effective: Heavy dips, followed by plyo push-ups. You just need to cycle this stuff appropriately as you can overdo things of too much volume is in place.

Andrew H. Meador 04-03-2009 12:46 PM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
I enjoy the olympic lifts. Sprinting is great too. Neither one can be replicated by other activities, but of course, there are plenty of movements which will test and develop power.

Jason R O'Dell 04-08-2009 05:42 PM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
Dragging this back up from the second page.

My discussion about cleans, snatches, power cleans, etc. in the "Last Seen in the Globo" thread made me think.

I do not know how to do any of those lifts and have nobody to teach me. I know most people say "Grab SS" and I stick by my response that I don't learn well from a book. I need someone to show me. But, I don't trust anybody at my globo.

I can squat and DL just fine though. So this thread made me wonder, if I never ever learn to do any of those movements how successful will I be in improving strength, power and speed for my sport?

I know other stuff for developing those has been mentioned in this thread like KB swings (which i can do), dumbbell snatches (which i can do for some reason), sprinting, etc. So just sticking to those movements along with the squatting and DL'n and doing CF and CF Football, but swapping out the cleans and such how reasonably successful can I be in improving my explosive power, strength and speed for rugby?

Just kind of trying to put the whole thread together with this post. Don't bite my head off.

See I'm a completest in everything in life. It's one of my quirks. I keep thinking "Well if I don't ever learn those movements then I'll never get stronger, fitter, or more visually pleasing." lol. Obviously that's not true, but I keep feeling incomplete without doing them. So that's why I ask if not doing them will seriously kill me down the road as far as development of all aspects of my sport-related fitness goes.


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