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-   -   Training for Power without Olympic Lifts (https://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=44859)

Blair Robert Lowe 04-08-2009 11:23 PM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
Jason, go get the SS and PM Oly dvd if you need to see visual references.

Work the SP, PP, and PJ. If you're too afraid to clean, simply work snatch pulls or clean pulls ( similar to speed DL but position is different ). These are also called jump shrugs. You can also do heaving snatch balances which is basically a form of jerk.

Work the cleans with a DB, very safe, easy to do. Not exactly the same thing though. Hard to get up to decent weights this route as well.

Jason, what's your sport?

Jason R O'Dell 04-09-2009 08:17 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
My sport is rugby.

So if I never learn the cleans at all, will I be able to develop explosive power, strength and speed?

Jacob Cloud 04-09-2009 08:19 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
Millions of powerful people never cleaned. Yes, it's possible...but why? Just learn to PC, at least.

Bert Brams 04-09-2009 08:28 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
[QUOTE=Jason R O'Dell;562329]My sport is rugby.

So if I never learn the cleans at all, will I be able to develop explosive power, strength and speed?[/QUOTE]

Jason,

First of all, for the lifts, buy Rippetoe's DVD. The book is good, yes, but the DVD is better if you want to learn the lifts. I have a ton of DVD's on both powerlifting and weightlifting, and his is the best what concerns instruction. He really takes things step by step and corrects mistakes with several people. Awesome stuff, I improved my press immediately after watching it.

Second, for years I practiced squats(close stance, deep, wide powerlifting stance, box squats, front squats, some overhead squats)and often did dumbbell snatches and for some periods power cleans. For large parts of the year I did hill sprints in the weekend, because I had trouble running on a flat surface due to knee injuries.

I ran a sub 11 100 meter during that time, and was extremely explosive.

Thirdly, the olympic lifts ARE awesome. Learn them as well. But do the above in the meantime. Dumbbell snatches are easy to learn, and power cleans are addressed on Rippetoe's video as well. If you want more, download Dan John's (FREE!) Ebook and video on weightlifting from his site.

I don't think this is a discussion of box squatting versus olympic lifts what concerns athletic application, but more on what to do while you learn these lifts.

Dan John has great instructions on how to learn the lifts and how to implement these into your program while you learn. No reason not check his advice out, very simple and straightforward.

As a side note, I used to think the same. I HAD to learn these lifts if I wanted to improve(which is not a bad train of thought, really - but go get it!) However, it took me a long time to learn proper form on the O-lifts(I'm still learning, as a matter of fact)and I did the above in the meantime.

Hill sprinting is pretty much fool-proof and will make an animal out of you. Couple that with swings, deep squats(front, back and overhead), box squats, deadlifts, box jumps, med ball throws and starting drills for sprinting and I doubt you will nót become any faster.

Andrew H. Meador 04-09-2009 08:48 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
It's possible to teach them to yourself. I'm self-taught in the olympic lifts - I'm approaching a bodyweight snatch at 6'4" 220 lbs. My form is quite good, but it took a lot of time. I now have some input from a coach, but I would keep lifting even if I didn't have him around. Read what you can on them, and watch videos if you want, but nothing replaces actually doing it. You'll need a bar with good bearings and some bumper plates. Try to learn the squat variations of the snatch and the clean, and the split jerk whenever you want, and realize that it will be ugly for a while.

Jacob Cloud 04-09-2009 08:59 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
[QUOTE=Jacob Cloud;562331]Millions of powerful people never cleaned. Yes, it's possible...but why? Just learn to PC, at least.[/QUOTE]

I guess I could have explained this better, but I'm a self-taught PC'er with probably C- form, but I can REALLY tell a difference in my "athleticism" just by including these in my programming. I've never even attempted a full squat or snatch (gasp!) but plan on getting some coaching at some point.

Jason R O'Dell 04-09-2009 09:07 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
I love me some squatting and deadlifting. I know those help improve power a lot.
I also do box jumps when I can. Of course my globo sucks, so the highest I can jump is onto the bench. I notice that I clear the bench hardcore when I jump, so I could probably leap onto a higher box.

I didn't think of sprinting for power. I read earlier in the thread that it's one of the best methods of generating force. I do sprint whenever I can, if I can find some hills and stairs though that'll provide some awesome work. That'll build endurance, speed and power.

I'm just wondering if I'm ever going to include the cleans in my workout and lifting regiment, so I'm worried I'm not going to be more powerful, faster, or stronger for sport. But, after reading this whole thread it appears there's a ton more things I can do to improve those 3 facets of my game without ever cleaning anything. Of course, being complete never hurts. ;)

Renee Lee 04-09-2009 09:20 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
[QUOTE=Jason R O'Dell;562374]I love me some squatting and deadlifting. I know those help improve power a lot.
I also do box jumps when I can. Of course my globo sucks, so the highest I can jump is onto the bench. I notice that I clear the bench hardcore when I jump, so I could probably leap onto a higher box.

I didn't think of sprinting for power. I read earlier in the thread that it's one of the best methods of generating force. I do sprint whenever I can, if I can find some hills and stairs though that'll provide some awesome work. That'll build endurance, speed and power.

I'm just wondering if I'm ever going to include the cleans in my workout and lifting regiment, so I'm worried I'm not going to be more powerful, faster, or stronger for sport. But, after reading this whole thread it appears there's a ton more things I can do to improve those 3 facets of my game without ever cleaning anything. Of course, being complete never hurts. ;)[/QUOTE]

i know you don't want to join an affiliate...but why not just call the closest one, and see if you get a couple sessions to learn the lifts? that's certainly worth the money, and it's a one time fee

Jason R O'Dell 04-09-2009 09:40 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
The only reason I don't want to join my affiliate is because the cheapest membership is 75 bucks a month and you only get 8 classes in that month. That's way too much to be limited to 8 sessions. I can workout at my globo (albeit not optimally, but it still gets the job done) for 60 a month for me and my wife as many times as I want in that month, not just 8 times. That 75 is just me. I'm not made of money!

However a few sessions to learn the lifts wouldn't be bad. So I sent an e-mail to the weightlifting coach to see what he had to say and to ask about costs.

*EDIT* Well it appears a 1-on-1 session is 75 bucks. *checks bank account* Yeah that's probably not happening.....

Renee Lee 04-09-2009 10:18 AM

Re: Training for Power without Olympic Lifts
 
[QUOTE=Jason R O'Dell;562401]The only reason I don't want to join my affiliate is because the cheapest membership is 75 bucks a month and you only get 8 classes in that month. That's way too much to be limited to 8 sessions. I can workout at my globo (albeit not optimally, but it still gets the job done) for 60 a month for me and my wife as many times as I want in that month, not just 8 times. That 75 is just me. I'm not made of money!

However a few sessions to learn the lifts wouldn't be bad. So I sent an e-mail to the weightlifting coach to see what he had to say and to ask about costs.

*EDIT* Well it appears a 1-on-1 session is 75 bucks. *checks bank account* Yeah that's probably not happening.....[/QUOTE]

*sigh* i don't understand. you want to learn to clean/do the other complex lifts BUT:

1) have written off using the free tutorials/videos because you learn through hands on teaching

2) have written off all the articles/how tos which are far more detailed and include skill transfer exercises and progressions in the CFJ (which at $25/year is practically free) for the same reason

3) Won't buy SS the book or the DVD (what is it, like $30 at the most for both? i don't have the DVD yet) for the same reason

4) do not have the funds for you and your wife joining an affiliate on a monthly basis...which i totally understand (i haven't joined CFBoston yet for the same reason)

5) have turned down a 1 on 1 session or two because it's $75 per session (hour, i assume)

Let's consider the money for a minute. (i'm not going to even mention that the $75/mo for 8 sessions works out to $9/class...which i would pay in a heartbeat...)

let's assume (falsely i hope) that you're going to only crossfit/lift regularly for 2 years. and in those year, lets assume with the 3/1 schedule that cleans/jerks/snatches show up once a week (sometimes more, sometimes less...let's just go with it). The cost of your ability to clean all those times based on that one $75 session works out to $.72 per wod. Now consider a) the benefit of your improved power/explosion/etc and application into your sport and b) the added cost/hinderance that NOT knowing how to clean has on your progress...is that worth <$.72 every time you pick up a barbell?

Plus, once you learn how, you can show your wife, so that one $75 session actually works out to $.36 every time either of you picks up a barbell.

you talk about being a completionist and OCD...MY ocd would never let me walk away from rounding out my training over $75...but that's just me


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