CrossFit Discussion Board

CrossFit Discussion Board (http://board.crossfit.com/index.php)
-   Community (http://board.crossfit.com/forumdisplay.php?f=25)
-   -   T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit (http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=38880)

George Noble 11-16-2008 02:15 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
It's hard to say, and it's speculation. CrossFit has shown that work done in the anaerobic pathways has a carryover to the oxidative pathway. CrossFit is only just responding to the fact that Gant's hybrid worked very well for increasing fitness, and CF certainly isn't the only way to train. It could be that more strength work is needed for optimum fitness. As you say, it's speculation.

I agree with you about speculation. That's why I don't think anyone should claim that a routine can add 550 lbs to someone's deadlift when it never has (at least, nobody has answered my question about where these 750 DLs are), especially not in the same breath as calling for "evidence based fitness." I really did think CF was above this ridiculous muscle mag hyperbole.

Tom Gentleman 11-16-2008 02:18 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by George Noble (Post 447902)
ridiculous muscle mag hyperbole.

Money, my brutha. It makes the world go 'round.

John C. Brown 11-16-2008 02:49 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by George Noble (Post 447902)
It's hard to say, and it's speculation. CrossFit has shown that work done in the anaerobic pathways has a carryover to the oxidative pathway. CrossFit is only just responding to the fact that Gant's hybrid worked very well for increasing fitness, and CF certainly isn't the only way to train. It could be that more strength work is needed for optimum fitness. As you say, it's speculation.

It has shown carry over and in fact will help it significantly however, you can never be competent at it without training it to some degree. CrossFit is looking for performance in all pathways, in all time domains and in all modalities. I just don't think that the strongmen have it across the board. As far as needing more strength work goes, I would say that if it increases over all work capacity across broad time and modal domains then, yes. But I do know of people that have stopped CrossFitting to focus merely on strength and didn't really like results when they came back. I am not sure about what Gant did as far as his programming, but I throw in more lifting any time my met con wods take less than 15 minutes... I am weak though. I think the problem comes in the form of concern of over training, but like you say, the only way to find out is to do the experiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Noble (Post 447902)
I agree with you about speculation. That's why I don't think anyone should claim that a routine can add 550 lbs to someone's deadlift when it never has (at least, nobody has answered my question about where these 750 DLs are), especially not in the same breath as calling for "evidence based fitness." I really did think CF was above this ridiculous muscle mag hyperbole.

I apologize, I don't know anything about your question, I would however re-phrase your statement to say "until." I don't know about any body DLing 750, or 550 (although somebody at the games a couple of years ago backsquated like 600 plus pounds). I know that CrossFit has added several hundred pounds to many people's deads, but I haven't heard of 550.

Phillip Garrison 11-16-2008 02:49 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by John C. Brown (Post 447254)
Phillip,

Your response to Tony B's question of ranking isn't sufficient. He asked for a thorough ranking of finishes from top to bottom related to Vo2, not just the top finishers. Re-read his post and then go through the results of your beloved Tour de France and see if 1-250 in VO2 max correlate to 1-250 in finishing order and I will bet that it won't.

Besides, it doesn't matter, I have never seen a group of firefighters showing up to a burning building of road bikes with those crazy looking aerodynamic helmets on. I have also never seen(or heard of) any body run 26.2 to save their own life.

Training for strongman comps is not directly correlative to the family in the airport. Those guys are racing each other (all 450 pounds of each other) and not a plane, or an itty bitty guy like me. Could Gabrielese carry more sand bags than me in a flood? Doubt it, not in length or number of bags. Could Magnus Magnusson (sp?) probably not in duration. How often am I going to have to lift a smooth rock weighing 300 pounds up to a pedestal to save my life? Not often (even if I did have to, it would only be once, because I would fail and die), but how often in training did I have to carry a 250 pound dude on a sprint in the woods, just in case he got shot in a real conflict? Often, which would have helped more... I am going with CrossFit here

I'm sure there wasn't a perfect correlation between VO2 and the finish of every competitor, but I'd be willing to be the average VO2 of the top 50 finishers was a standard deviation higher than the average VO2 of the bottom 50 finishers. VO2 max is actually a very good predictor of success in being able to fight a fire, and is one of the keep components they now test for.


I'd be willing to wager the work capacity of a top strongman is as high or higher than a CF'r

Tim Donahey 11-16-2008 02:50 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
That article hits the nails on the head. Good read.

John C. Brown 11-16-2008 02:57 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq (Post 447919)
I'm sure there wasn't a perfect correlation between VO2 and the finish of every competitor, but I'd be willing to be the average VO2 of the top 50 finishers was a standard deviation higher than the average VO2 of the bottom 50 finishers. VO2 max is actually a very good predictor of success in being able to fight a fire, and is one of the keep components they now test for.

No, VO2 max is a good predictor of oxygen consumption while fighting a fire, it says nothing of the efficiency of actually fighting the fire. I would bet a shinny nickel that most of the guys that ride the TdFrance couldn't carry a fire hose. They may have the highest VO2 max of any human alive, but they most likely lack the strength to accomplish the work.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq (Post 447919)
I'd be willing to wager the work capacity of a top strongman is as high or higher than a CF'r

In what modality? In what time domain? I would say that Casey Burgener can out snatch pretty much anyone in the U.S.A. He didn't finish Fran his first try. Now, I recognize that Oly lifting and Strongman are different, but I would also double your wager and say that their work capacity doesn't hit the top of the CrossFit food chain. Alas, this argument is folly, because it isn't likely to happen (the testing) although I am sure that there are a ton of CrossFitters (including the Glassman's) who would love to see it happen.

Phillip Garrison 11-16-2008 03:09 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by John C. Brown (Post 447925)
No, VO2 max is a good predictor of oxygen consumption while fighting a fire, it says nothing of the efficiency of actually fighting the fire. I would bet a shinny nickel that most of the guys that ride the TdFrance couldn't carry a fire hose. They may have the highest VO2 max of any human alive, but they most likely lack the strength to accomplish the work.




In what modality? In what time domain? I would say that Casey Burgener can out snatch pretty much anyone in the U.S.A. He didn't finish Fran his first try. Now, I recognize that Oly lifting and Strongman are different, but I would also double your wager and say that their work capacity doesn't hit the top of the CrossFit food chain. Alas, this argument is folly, because it isn't likely to happen (the testing) although I am sure that there are a ton of CrossFitters (including the Glassman's) who would love to see it happen.

I never said the riders would make good firefighters, but the ability to handle the hypoxic demands of fires, makes having a good VO2 a predictor of withstanding the rigors of the profession. You're right WL and Strongman are different, I've done both.

John C. Brown 11-16-2008 03:20 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq (Post 447929)
I never said the riders would make good firefighters, but the ability to handle the hypoxic demands of fires, makes having a good VO2 a predictor of withstanding the rigors of the profession. You're right WL and Strongman are different, I've done both.

No, you said that VO2 max is a predictor for successful firefighting. If that is the case then these bike riders would be successful at firefighting. I say they wouldn't be even if I spot them another 200 points on their VO2 max testy thingy.

And Fires aren't a hypoxia problem either, fire fighters wear air tanks. The question becomes how many times will they have to get a new tank during the duration of the fire. In which case VO2 max has some relevance, but only if they are strong enough to carry the tanks... plus an axe, hose, potentially a buddy or a burn victim. For that situation riding a bike is not going to help much.

Look, all people are trying to tell you is that CrossFit's definition of fitness is clear. He who can do the most work (in all time domains and presumably any task) is the fittest. These are the demands of life. The caveman that could crush competitors with the biggest rock would only survive if he could out run the mammoth too, the guy that could do both would survive longest.

Tim Donahey 11-16-2008 03:29 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Darrell E. White (Post 438513)
My only criticism is in your treatment of Greg Glassman. While Greg is admittedly a lightening rod, isn't that in part the required role for the founder/leader/mouthpiece for any new movement of any kind? Your observations are in general accurate, but you took the easy route in seeking comment from individuals who are openly hostile.

Chris offered Glassman the opportunity to speak for himself and he refused. If it seemed one-sided in that respect it's because Coach wanted it that way.

Just sayin'.

Phillip Garrison 11-16-2008 03:31 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by John C. Brown (Post 447934)
No, you said that VO2 max is a predictor for successful firefighting. If that is the case then these bike riders would be successful at firefighting. I say they wouldn't be even if I spot them another 200 points on their VO2 max testy thingy.

And Fires aren't a hypoxia problem either, fire fighters wear air tanks. The question becomes how many times will they have to get a new tank during the duration of the fire. In which case VO2 max has some relevance, but only if they are strong enough to carry the tanks... plus an axe, hose, potentially a buddy or a burn victim. For that situation riding a bike is not going to help much.

Look, all people are trying to tell you is that CrossFit's definition of fitness is clear. He who can do the most work (in all time domains and presumably any task) is the fittest. These are the demands of life. The caveman that could crush competitors with the biggest rock would only survive if he could out run the mammoth too, the guy that could do both would survive longest.


Yes VO2 is a predictor of successful fire fighting, I didn't say it wad the only predictor. How do you know a TDF rider couldn't handle firefighting. CF's definition isn't clear. BTW i"ve actually trained and studied firefighter training and fitness, have you?


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:43 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
CrossFit is a registered trademark of CrossFit Inc.