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C James Barton 12-30-2008 02:46 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
Observed Speciation:

On macroevolution:


David Wood 12-30-2008 07:22 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
Folks, get this back to Nutrition as a subject or it moves to "Stuff and Nonsense", and then gets closed.

Debating evolution vs. creationism is essentially religous in character, and the proponents of creationism (and, sometimes, evolution) are (generally) utterly immune to logic and/or evidence. They have something more powerful ("faith").

Get the subject back on Nutrition, please, or it's gone.


Steven Low 12-30-2008 07:57 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
This thread is fail.

If you're Christian and don't agree with Paleo then don't agree with it. But at the very least you can recognize that processed foods are generally bad. This encompasses "most" of what Paleo is about I would say (arguable but it's a nice simplification). And if you want some justification for that you can say that man's foods (processed) are not better than natural foods (plants and animals) that God has made.

As far as non-Paleo non-processed foods... experiment with your body and see if they work well with it. If not, ditch them. If so, then keep them if you enjoy them. Simple. Everyone stays away from processed foods and eats well according to what their bodies handle well.

That was easy.

Robert D Taylor Jr 12-30-2008 08:04 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
This thread is a success, if of course your goal was to drag Steven out of CF board retirement.:)

Bob Guere 12-30-2008 08:05 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
[QUOTE=Robert D Taylor Jr;482056]This thread is a success, if of course your goal was to drag Steven out of CF board retirement.:)[/QUOTE]

Haha... good point. Welcome back Steven, if only temporarily. You've been missed.

Brandon Oto 12-30-2008 10:44 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
[QUOTE=Lurene Grenier;481585]That is exactly not what I'm saying. What I AM saying is that I can construct a perfectly valid proof with non-veracious assumptions, thus being internally consistant and yet disjoint.

validity and veraciousness are seperate and distinct properties.

I am emphatically saying that logic and math CANNOT be otherwise. Thats what validity MEANS - that the structure and consistency of your argument are correct.[/QUOTE]

Sure. But nobody outside of philosophy (and maybe heavy absinthe drinkers) is usually very interested in valid but unsound proofs.

I haven't a clue what everyone else is going on about, though, and likewise doubt they're super intrigued by philosophy of logic, so this is probably something for PM if you want to continue it.

David Reed 12-31-2008 02:18 AM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
[QUOTE=Robert Wolf;481804]
Has anyone read the book [I]Contact[/I]? The movie was pretty good, the book was phenomenal and really gets to the heart of this topic.[/QUOTE]

I have read a lot of Carl Sagan's non-fiction works, but not Contact. Now that you've said that I think I'll give it a try.

Shawn Casey 12-31-2008 03:40 AM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
3-2-1 Contact? I used to love that show. Especially the bloodhound gang. I use to watch it on PBS right after sesame street and the electric company.:)

But seriously, Paleo rocks any way you look at it. Just make the transition and you'll feel the difference.

Camille Lore 12-31-2008 04:29 AM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
[QUOTE=Robert D Taylor Jr;482056]This thread is a success, if of course your goal was to drag Steven out of CF board retirement.:)[/QUOTE]

Thanks for stopping in Steven. It's like community service for you.... your posts have such valuable info in them, it's nice of you to share it with us.

Phillip Garrison 12-31-2008 12:53 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
Wow this quickly devolved into an evolution vs creationsim/ID discussion, which is pointless, no amount of "evidence" will convince the other side to change. If you don't like it being called a "paleolithic diet" call it a "Hunter-Gatherer diet" since most of the evidence to support the health claims of the diet are from ethnographic studies of modern hunter-gatherer societies which don't suffer from diabtes, heart disease, stroke, arthritis, and obesity to the rates that we currently do.

Matt DeMinico 12-31-2008 01:31 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
[QUOTE=Ben Chapman;480468]Ok, I will preface this thread with the statement that we need to be careful. I'm going to broach a topic that could easily descend into personal attacks and some heated, possibly unfriendly debate. I also caution people to not steer it towards religion, it is not the point of bringing this up.

First of all I will state that I think there are some real merits to the paleo diet, people see results with it and I am hugely in favor of consuming foods at their most natural level. Having said that, I am not a paleo believer free and clear. Why? Because one of the prefaces for the paleo diet comes from the concept of millions of years of human evolution. I don't believe in evolution in the sense that most others do; at least not in the sense of descent with modification; or speciation. I was a biology major in college and whenever I requested some evidence from the fossil record or otherwise to show true descent with modification, I came up not only completely dry, but devoid of anyone having examples that THEY had heard of (these are PhDs in zoology, ecology and microbiology). That being said, I have nothing against someone who believes it. I believe that its a THEORY (still a theory, yes) that has support in its favor, but also has some glaring holes and some often swept under and ignored support that is NOT in its favor.

This is all to say, or inquire to any other paleo non-believers out there. I believe that people see results from the diet and that it can work, but mostly because of other reasons: i.e. the hail back to very natural foods of wide variety. For the reasons above though, I do believe that some of the paleo no-nos are still open season for me: certain grains, like rices, oats and some very specific types of corn, I believe that human history is short enough and also intelligent enough that these foods played a role all the way through and are not something to simply be discarded.

Feel free to discuss, you can see how this might descend into a religious topic, which admittedly is where my overall starting point comes from. However, I think that I can talk on a logical and scientific level about it as well.

Agree? disagree?[/QUOTE]

Ben, just to say (without bringing it into an "evolution has a tons of holes" (which I think it does) debate again), I agree with you, let me explain:

Evolution is far from proven, and other theories have just as much, if not more, evidence. [b]I'm not going to go into that debate and/or the evidence here folks, if you want to debate me on that, eMail me.[/b] With that said, there's benefits and drawbacks to the Paleo diet. Principally though, I believe the Paleo diet (like much of our modern geologic, astronomic, biologic, and other areas of science) are based on faulty presuppositions. BUT, luckily for the Paleo diet, some of those presuppositions stand squarely above a rock solid foundation (rock solid in my mind anyhow, namely, those which line up with the Biblical model of creation).

The way I see it (again, debate me in eMails, I just want to present an alternate way of looking at a similar diet), God created everything we need to sustain a healthy body in our world when He made the Earth in the Garden of Eden (I'm going way deep here, but follow me). When the fall of man happened, sin entered the world, and death is a consequence of sin. Poisonous items, creatures that would regularly kill a human for food, etc, all are a result of that corruption. With that said, no longer is everything in the world good for man to consume. But how do we know what's good? There's a lot of Biblical verses on foods to eat, foods to avoid, and even recipes. Similarly, there are some Biblical verses that say to not eat something simply for ceremonial purposes. I'm not going to go too much into depth on these things, but suffice to say, for a good example, look up Ezekiel bread, it's literally got everything a human being needs to stay alive indefinitely during a siege, including all required amino acids and essential fatty acids (a few places make it and sell it, check out their site [url][/url] (w/f safe))

Anyhow, just trying to say, parts of the Paleo diet line up with human ancestry. Up until Abraham, humans were pretty much nomads. They'd roam around, find a place with lots of resources (plants and animals) and eat until it was gone. Then they'd go somewhere else. Eventually there were so many people that they'd run into each other and compete (read: war) for food. Somewhere along the way, Abraham said "Wait a minute, I can cultivate the land and raise herds, and have an even greater return for my effort". This, if done properly, results in just as good health (and actually potentially allows greater activity due to allowing a larger amount of calories to be ingested due to their density in things like grains... try eating only vegetables for your carb source at 25 blocks...)

I'm going way off on a tangent, and this is getting long, and I may be mis-representing a few of my thoughts in there, I kinda just threw it together, but you get the point.

Phillip Garrison 12-31-2008 02:19 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
[QUOTE=Matt DeMinico;482508]

Evolution is far from proven, [/QUOTE]

Except for those darn pesky microbes which are evolving all the time. Hence antibiotic resitstant bacteria

John S Park 12-31-2008 02:30 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
what does birds turning into fish and the whole argument about macroevolution have to do with hominid nutrition??

what about all the fossils they find of lucy ([URL=""]Australopithecus [/URL] wfs). dating ~ 3 million years ago. homo erectus, ergaster, homo habilis, neandertals, and homo sapiens.. how they evolve from a monkey like species that is the first of its kind to be bipedal 3 mya and progresses toward the form we are today chronologically.. There are several fossil sites all over Europe, Africa, and Asia with all different kind of hominid species. They all had tools and they were hunter gatherers.. Dents in neandertal bones were comparable to rodeo bull rider injuries meaning that they had to wrestle and hunt large animals for food

Joshua Murphy 12-31-2008 03:18 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
This was a great discussion that ran its useful course.

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