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-   -   T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit (http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=38880)

Tim Donahey 11-18-2008 12:47 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon Oto (Post 449595)
I will publicly offer a $50 finder's fee to anyone who can provide proof or reasonable testimony to knowledge of any such person, anywhere in the ranks of thousands of CrossFitters worldwide, whether present or past, or in the reasonable future, no matter how freakish or gifted.

Ummm... I got a five spot on that!

George Noble 11-18-2008 12:53 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Cavazos (Post 449591)
That last bit wasn't directed at you, George. Apologies.

Not a problem.

Joe Cavazos 11-18-2008 01:02 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Cavazos (Post 449571)
The 750# Deadlift is for conceptual purposes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon Oto (Post 449595)
... provide proof ...

:confused:

Your continued harping on this issue is silly. You've gotten people to apologize for Glassman by saying it was an exaggeration, or a conceptual tool, or a poor guess from earlier in the CrossFit timeline. But that's not what you want. You don't want those explanations because they're just not damning enough. You want Glassman to be a liar. You want him to be a snake oil salesman. You want him to be consciously duping the thousands of adherents to his program.

You're trying to prove motive. No, actually, you're not trying to prove motive. You're just trying to get people to speculate as to the motive in lock step with you.

Give this issue up.

Shane Skowron 11-18-2008 01:03 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Nobody's hit a 1:30 Fran time yet either. My thoughts are that eventually someone very gifted and very dedicated will do it within 2 years of starting Crossfit and following no other structured program. Does that mean it's a lie to say that CF can take you to a 1:30 Fran time in 2 years?

Of course deadlifts and Frans are two entirely different animals but the point being that just because something hasn't happened yet doesn't mean the program is incapable of doing something. Consider the sample size of the following population: a) males, because they're strongest b) who are more than 200# because there's no way a 150# guy can pull 750# on CF alone c) who are dialed in perfectly with their nutrition and sleep d) who actually have a desire to pull that weight e) who are relatively short because I've never seen a tall guy pull that kind of weight and f) who are genetically predisposed to the deadlift g) who started out with a poor deadlift h) who have been doing CF without any external program for 2 solid years.

How many people do you think fit that description? Very, very few. The sample size is far too small to give the definitive answer of no it's not possible. I really don't think Greg Glassman was thinking that some shrimpy guy who is kinda into CF and comes from an endurance background and just does CF for kicks can really pull 750# within two years.

Do I think it's an exaggeration? Probably. But like I said, given the right circumstances the possibility is not out of the question.

David Wood 11-18-2008 01:21 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Brandon, I really can't understand you.

Personally, and speaking *only* for myself, I regret that quote by Coach about the 500-750 pound DL (although I'm reasonably confident that he doesn't regret it, it doesn't seem to be in his nature).

I think he was flush with excitement at the possibilities he was seeing as he started to see results from larger numbers of folks than he could train personally, and he overestimated the range of what was achievable.

And (my personal opinion only, and NOT speaking as an "official" representative of CrossFit) I think he guessed wrong at the degree of carryover from being able to do 250 multiple times to being able to do 500 once. There is carryover, a lot . . . but maybe less than it looked like at the time.

But I really can't understand the hatred from you and your buddies at ********.

The quoted range was 500 - 750. A non-trivial number of CrossFitters have crossed the lower threshold (as evidenced by personal testimony and/or logsitall entries (and assuming that the logsitall stuff is from "CrossFitters")). I don't believe Coach ever asserted that every trainer would do so. So how is it a "lie" (your words)?

FWIW, I'm partially there . . . I have a 415 DL at a bodyweight of 160 (2.6x BW), with NEVER deadlifting more than called for in the WOD. Will I make it to 500? Maybe . . . it looks a long way off right now, and it's not a particularly important mission for me. Would I be there today if I was 5 inches taller and 200 pounds bodyweight? My guess is I would . . . 500 pounds would be a lower fraction of BW (if I weighed that much) than I can do now.


On the "mass building" claim, again, I can honestly say (as my personal opinion only) that I wish he had not said that (and, again, I seriously doubt that Coach thinks that way).

My own experience (validated by the pictures posted above) is that the following modification would be truer: "CrossFit will do a better job of creating the body that the *vast* majority of men and women want (which is NOT what wins bodybuilding contests) than the splits and body parts routines commonly practiced and publicized in the bodybuilding 'literature'". It's certainly true for me personally . . . I'm happier with my physique (at the decrepit old age of 53) since CrossFit than I ever was when I was body(not)building.

I recognize that that is NOT what was said . . . but my experience is that it's closer to the truth, and I think it's what most people here "get" instinctively once they start training, (and what you, apparently, don't).


Brandon, I'm trying to figure out why you feel you have the self-appointed role of public scourge? I honestly don't recall establishing that category of membership . . . did I miss something? I recognize you're a follower who needs validation from your buddies elsewhere (such a *great* group of guys over there) . . . but I'm honestly getting very tired of your ****.

You're intelligent, you've got a number of great posts to your credit . . . and yet you're the kind of person who can't see the forest for the trees. I don't get it.

Tim Donahey 11-18-2008 01:43 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by David Wood (Post 449647)
"CrossFit will do a better job of creating the body that the *vast* majority of men and women want (which is NOT what wins bodybuilding contests) than the splits and body parts routines commonly practiced and publicized in the bodybuilding 'literature'".

Agreed! 110%

Brandon Oto 11-18-2008 01:44 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by David Wood (Post 449647)
The quoted range was 500 - 750. A non-trivial number of CrossFitters have crossed the lower threshold (as evidenced by personal testimony and/or logsitall entries (and assuming that the logsitall stuff is from "CrossFitters")). I don't believe Coach ever asserted that every trainer would do so. So how is it a "lie" (your words)?

A range is given, which implies that results anywhere within that range are possible. I assert that some parts of this range are not possible. (That he would say "we can take you..." further implies that he had actually performed this action with athletes previously, but I won't even ask for that; I'll give you any time range, for any CrossFitter, from Santa Cruz to Hong Kong.)

Even one single person placing in the upper bounds of that description would justify the range given. I assert that none exist or will exist. Perhaps I'm wrong.

If the misleading nature of the claim isn't clear, it can be inflated to make it more obvious. What would you say if I told you that CrossFit could take you from a 200lb deadlift to a 5000lb deadlift?

That I'm not technically lying?

Or "CrossFit can give you a 5000 pound deadlift?!"

Quote:

Brandon, I'm trying to figure out why you feel you have the self-appointed role of public scourge? I honestly don't recall establishing that category of membership . . . did I miss something? I recognize you're a follower who needs validation from your buddies elsewhere (such a *great* group of guys over there) . . . but I'm honestly getting very tired of your ****.

You're intelligent, you've got a number of great posts to your credit . . . and yet you're the kind of person who can't see the forest for the trees. I don't get it.
I don't see how this bears on the topic. You can pretend I'm a CrossFit-hating robot sent from the planet Krypton if you want. We're discussing the truth value of objective statements; it doesn't matter who I am.

Robert Callahan 11-18-2008 01:46 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon Oto (Post 449595)
Absolutely nobody has ever gone from a 200lb deadlift to a 750lb deadlift in two years using the CrossFit.com WoD. I will publicly offer a $50 finder's fee to anyone who can provide proof or reasonable testimony to knowledge of any such person, anywhere in the ranks of thousands of CrossFitters worldwide, whether present or past, or in the reasonable future, no matter how freakish or gifted.

I was going to respond with the exact same argument I used last post since you seem to have neglected it, but David's post is much better :)

btw what is someone like Greg Amundson's Deadlift? Since he was one of the several savages that Coach was training in those early days who I could see reaching a some pretty heavy lifts.

Shawn Casey 11-18-2008 01:52 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
DaMN YoU coACh, DaMN YOu CrOssFit!!! YOU"VE RUINED MY DREAM OF A HAVING BETWEEN A 500-750 LBS DEADLIFT FROM A VERY LOW STARTING POINT OF 200LBS. ANOTHER THING CROSSFIT, I"LL NEVER BE ABLE TO FLEX MY HAMSTRINGS ON STAGE!!!!!

Maybe I'll try that crap that Mr. Oto got going on over there and see if I get the same results( even though I'm on a filtered net and haven't a clue what it's about). You have a new disciple Mr. Oto, train me please!! Dude, coach said 500-750 not just 750.

Oh, I must have built all my mass from my bowflex. Plus, I got a 400LBS and rising deadlift from the bowflex, too. You can't compare what they say on a bowflex commercial to crossfit. I believe it is possible to start your first crossfit workout with a 200lbs deadlift and achieve over a 500lbs on crossfit in 2 years. If anyone achieved this, coaches statement would be true. from a 200 to 500-750. If someone hit 501 and never hit higher than 503 his statement would still be true. Doesn't matter if he said 500-1million the statement would still be true. Plus, I think I just proved that you can build more mass with crossfit, or at least the same, than a natual bodybuilder can with a traditional bodybuilding program. Plus, you get more bennefits with crossfit than bodybuilding.

Who are you trying to convince, anyway? You are preaching to the wrong people. Sounds like jealousy, with a touch of hateraid.

On a serious note, whatever.

David Wood 11-18-2008 02:02 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon Oto (Post 449655)
A range is given, which implies that results anywhere within that range are possible.
. . . .


If the misleading nature of the claim isn't clear, it can be inflated to make it more obvious. What would you say if I told you that CrossFit could take you from a 200lb deadlift to a 5000lb deadlift?

That I'm not technically lying?

Well, since you seem to be so deeply into the minutiae of the argument (the trees rather than the forest), I would point out that if a range is given, and any part of that range is achieved, then the claim has been met. The range does not imply that all parts of the range must be satisfied for the statement to be true . . . only that some part of it must be.

If you said that (insert program here) could take you from a 200 pound DL to a DL in the range of 500 to 5,000 pounds, then, yes, a 501-pound lift satisfies the range.

Again, for the record, as my personal opinion only, I think Coach was over-enthusiastic in that interview.

Brandon, you and I have corresponded enough for me to know that you're not a robot . . . you're a real person with an agenda I can't understand.

Seriously, I think Joe got it right above (his post while I was typing my last one) . . . you seem to be motivated by a deeply-felt need to make Coach *wrong*. I realize that there's a population out there that needs that to be true in order to make up for their own pathetic shortcomings . . . but why are you trying to fit into that category?


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