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-   -   TUF 13 - Brock Lesnar and Junior Dos Santos (http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=64221)

Sean Dunston 01-12-2011 11:56 AM

TUF 13 - Brock Lesnar and Junior Dos Santos
 
Seriously?
Brock as a coach.
Oh, my...

I guess for the TV/entertainment value, this is good for the UFC... but seriously?

And they're going to train welterweights -- where SKILL is going to be a huge factor in their fights... as opposed to SIZE, which is just about all Brock has in his arsenal. Yeah, he's quick (for his size), but it has been his sheer size and brute strength that won him his fights.

:thumbs_do

Jason R O'Dell 01-12-2011 12:02 PM

Re: TUF 13 - Brock Lesnar and Junior Dos Santos
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Dunston (Post 890145)
Seriously?
Brock as a coach.
Oh, my...

I guess for the TV/entertainment value, this is good for the UFC... but seriously?

And they're going to train welterweights -- where SKILL is going to be a huge factor in their fights... as opposed to SIZE, which is just about all Brock has in his arsenal. Yeah, he's quick (for his size), but it has been his sheer size and brute strength that won him his fights.

:thumbs_do

100% positive he can show them a thing or two about wrestling.

Sean Dunston 01-12-2011 12:20 PM

Re: TUF 13 - Brock Lesnar and Junior Dos Santos
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason R O'Dell (Post 890149)
100% positive he can show them a thing or two about wrestling.

Perhaps... and as a wrestler (way back in the day) I am a fan of wrestling.

However, wrestling is a pretty small component of MMA -- useful things from wrestling that carry over to MMA are: takedowns, takedown defense, and maybe a little bit of ground control (but that can be quickly negated by a good BJJ artist).

Wrestling does not have submissions, or submission defense and there is also no striking in wrestling.

I dunno.

:shrug:

Jason R O'Dell 01-12-2011 12:25 PM

Re: TUF 13 - Brock Lesnar and Junior Dos Santos
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Dunston (Post 890166)
Perhaps... and as a wrestler (way back in the day) I am a fan of wrestling.

However, wrestling is a pretty small component of MMA -- useful things from wrestling that carry over to MMA are: takedowns, takedown defense, and maybe a little bit of ground control (but that can be quickly negated by a good BJJ artist).

Wrestling does not have submissions, or submission defense and there is also no striking in wrestling.

I dunno.

:shrug:

I agree. I was more pointing to the fact you were trying to say he only has size and power and insinuating he doesn't have skill. I was trying to say he does have skill in wrestling.

Doug Blankenship 01-13-2011 09:59 PM

Re: TUF 13 - Brock Lesnar and Junior Dos Santos
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Dunston (Post 890166)
Perhaps... and as a wrestler (way back in the day) I am a fan of wrestling.

However, wrestling is a pretty small component of MMA -- useful things from wrestling that carry over to MMA are: takedowns, takedown defense, and maybe a little bit of ground control (but that can be quickly negated by a good BJJ artist).

Wrestling does not have submissions, or submission defense and there is also no striking in wrestling.

I dunno.

:shrug:

It's all about ratings and Brock equals ratings. I also would say that wrestling is a major component of MMA, not a small one. Most dominant fighters come from a wrestling background. I've done bjj for years and the biggest pains in the arses is wrestlers.

Jeffrey Crawford 01-14-2011 06:41 AM

Re: TUF 13 - Brock Lesnar and Junior Dos Santos
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Dunston (Post 890166)
Perhaps... and as a wrestler (way back in the day) I am a fan of wrestling.

However, wrestling is a pretty small component of MMA -- :shrug:

I find that to be a pretty interesting comment, I mean if you look at all the current MMA Champs in the UFC

155- Frankie Edgar/Gray maynard- wreslters
170- GSP- Amazing Wrestling
185- Horrible Wrestler
205- Shogun- Decent wrestler
Heavyweight- Cain- Wrestler

Then if you look at who would give shogun and anderson fits, it would be a good wrestler, So I would say wrestling is a pretty big component of MMA, and in my opinion the best base for fighters starting out.
That being said, I never understand why they dont have fights in the same weight class as the coaches on TUF.

Matt Payne 01-14-2011 07:42 AM

Re: TUF 13 - Brock Lesnar and Junior Dos Santos
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Dunston (Post 890166)
Perhaps... and as a wrestler (way back in the day) I am a fan of wrestling.

However, wrestling is a pretty small component of MMA -- useful things from wrestling that carry over to MMA are: takedowns, takedown defense, and maybe a little bit of ground control (but that can be quickly negated by a good BJJ artist).

Wrestling does not have submissions, or submission defense and there is also no striking in wrestling.

I dunno.

:shrug:

Wrestling is a large part of MMA. In fact I would go so far as to say it may even be the best "base" to come in with. Controlling an opponent on the ground or being able to take an opponent to the ground is a big part of MMA and Wrestling. As far as Brock goes, sure this is for ratings.... And they will get them too. :D

Sean Dunston 01-14-2011 08:35 AM

Re: TUF 13 - Brock Lesnar and Junior Dos Santos
 
I stand by my comments, here and above. I am mostly criticizing Brock as a coach for an MMA team, not wrestling in general. I think Brock is pretty one-dimensional, and the other factor he has that can't be coached -- SIZE -- is on his side, but it won't be on the side of welterweights on his team.

I did not say that wrestling is a bad foundation for MMA - in fact, I think it is essential. Unless both fighters are going to stand and throw for the entire fight, they better know how to shoot some takedowns, and defend takedowns/sprawl. Sure - there are some fantastic throws in Judo, and some BJJ folks can jump and pull guard on their opponents but that is rare, and most fights get to the ground with a single or double leg. Ground control is a big element of wrestling too - but that's about as far as wrestling will take you in MMA (other than conditioning -- which I think we'll all agree is needed, but I can't say a wrestler's conditioning is superior to others' because I just am not as familiar with the way others do their conditioning).

I don't think there's a single wrestler out there who is comfortable on his back. I know my old wrestling coach forbade our entire team from sleeping on our backs because he didn't want us to ever be that close to being pinned. No joke. In fact, you see a lot of guys with strong wrestling backgrounds (and not much else) give up their backs pretty quickly when they're on the ground precisely because they do not want to be ON THEIR BACKS. Unless they can pull off an amazing escape, that is usually a terribly risky thing to do.

Donald Lee 01-14-2011 10:00 AM

Re: TUF 13 - Brock Lesnar and Junior Dos Santos
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Dunston (Post 891118)
and most fights get to the ground with a single or double leg.

Single leg takedowns are uncommon in MMA. The only time I can remember seeing one was when Randy Couture did it to James Toney.

Matt Payne 01-14-2011 12:04 PM

Re: TUF 13 - Brock Lesnar and Junior Dos Santos
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Dunston (Post 891118)
I stand by my comments, here and above. I am mostly criticizing Brock as a coach for an MMA team, not wrestling in general. I think Brock is pretty one-dimensional, and the other factor he has that can't be coached -- SIZE -- is on his side, but it won't be on the side of welterweights on his team.

I did not say that wrestling is a bad foundation for MMA - in fact, I think it is essential. Unless both fighters are going to stand and throw for the entire fight, they better know how to shoot some takedowns, and defend takedowns/sprawl. Sure - there are some fantastic throws in Judo, and some BJJ folks can jump and pull guard on their opponents but that is rare, and most fights get to the ground with a single or double leg. Ground control is a big element of wrestling too - but that's about as far as wrestling will take you in MMA (other than conditioning -- which I think we'll all agree is needed, but I can't say a wrestler's conditioning is superior to others' because I just am not as familiar with the way others do their conditioning).

I don't think there's a single wrestler out there who is comfortable on his back. I know my old wrestling coach forbade our entire team from sleeping on our backs because he didn't want us to ever be that close to being pinned. No joke. In fact, you see a lot of guys with strong wrestling backgrounds (and not much else) give up their backs pretty quickly when they're on the ground precisely because they do not want to be ON THEIR BACKS. Unless they can pull off an amazing escape, that is usually a terribly risky thing to do.

As far as wrestling taking you far in MMA. I still think as a solid base it will take you farther than an other element. You can teach a wrestler to strike but can you teach a striker to wrestle just as easily? I don't think you can...just my opinion. You look at GSP for an example.....he pounded BJ Penn , on the ground (where BJ is great), standing etc... and GSP uses ground control a lot in his game....


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