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-   -   T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit (http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=38880)

George Noble 11-18-2008 03:31 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by David Wood (Post 449783)
:rofl:

As someone who weighs "only" 160, I *need* that fixation (at least in reporting my lifts) . . . I'm not going to match the lifts of my larger brethren. Call it a form of compensation for my inadequacies :)

In specifying a workout, maybe it's just a convenient training protocol to allow a widely-varying potential range of body types do the workouts?


I fully understand that most real world challenges recognize no age, weight, or gender categories . . . as someone once said: "God made all men; it took Samuel Colt to make them equal."

I'm around 170 myself. I can understand it in the context of powerlifting, but not in terms of functional strength. A 405 deadlift is more functional than a 315 deadlift, even if the guy who did 315 is 130 lbs. I'm also not saying it's bad. Weird != bad, or I'd be in Hell.

Shane Rapp 11-18-2008 03:38 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Frederic Giraud (Post 449396)
We are still talking about mass gains routine and not bodybuilding routines, if you want to be that strict . Mass gain is only 1 part of any bodybuilding routine, thus you can't say crossfit is a better bodybuilding program....but a better mass gain program.

And about what did he really means when using bodybuilding well who knows? Only him. But I'm still someone able to draw my own conclusions. And with all the taught he puts into fitness/crossfit, I think saying that he doesn't and wouldn't agree on the fact that there is different "kind" of bodybuilding routine, is an attakc to his intelligence more than anything. Come on guys stop with the non-sense... This has been debated more than enough and this is the general conclusion, that yes if we could get more precision regarding his claims, everyone would be happy, but what he said is still true, just because of the hormonal response of the exercise, period.

Sorry Frederic, but now you're just making excuses to justify the silly statements and I think you know this. The claim that it would be superior for bodybuilding is pretty obvious to see and makes little sense just as the deadlift claim does.

As far as this VO2 max vs Fran time thing, I think both are useful for testing certain aspects of fitness. Specifically regarding firefighters, when I was an undergrad in exercise physiology I helped out when our human performance lab did the annual test for the local fire department and there was a strong correlation between VO2 max and how well the firefighters did on other, more job specific tests. It wasn't the only indicator of success but VO2 max isnt supposed to be. I'd bet that having good times on some of the WODs would be good indicators as well. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. A WOD would probably be a better general test if you were only going to do one test whereas a test like VO2 max might tell you where a more specific weakness lies.

I think pretty much all of us agree that Crossfit has a lot of good stuff about it but it has strengths and weaknesses just like everything else. It's sad that supporters like Phillip who are offering constructive criticism are treated so rudely. This thread is making it obvious who drank too much koolaid. Think I'll head back over to rosstraining.

Adam Scheiner 11-18-2008 03:47 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon Oto (Post 449728)
Because I love the truth more than I love you guys.

:rofl:well played

Chris Walls 11-18-2008 03:52 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shane Rapp (Post 449811)
It's sad that supporters like Phillip who are offering constructive criticism are treated so rudely. This thread is making it obvious who drank too much koolaid. Think I'll head back over to rosstraining.

I will admit that at first I was rubbed the wrong way by Phillip (and still am on some posts) but now see where he is coming from. It felt more like he was demanding the proof before he would admit this was a valid way to train. Now it's more along the lines of "if we want to be taken seriously we need the proof" as opposed to "bah... until you have valid scientific proof I will continue farting in your general direction" :)

Glenn Pendlay 11-18-2008 03:56 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Brandon,

No, this person did NOT exclusively use the WOD. Gary was active in powerlifting in the late 80's and early 90's, a time period in which Crossfit didnt exist.

My assertion was that I believe that this is one person, who, considering his talent and history, COULD HAVE achieved a 750lb (or more) deadlift using only the CF WOD, and a training time period of 2 years or less. I think there are others, maybe Mark Henry or someone like that could have also done it, but I think Gary, given his talent for this particular lift, is the most obvious example of someone who COULD HAVE achieved this strength level with training consisting of the WOD exclusively.

Your assertion was "This program will not, as claimed, ever take anybody to a 750lb deadlift. This is not the same as saying it won't take everybody there. It will do so for absolutely nobody."

I think the existence of people like Gary prove that your statement, as written, is wrong.

Now, I will admit, I do believe that if it is true that Gary could have done this, and I definately think it is true, it has a lot more to do with him and his exceptional genetics than with the effectiveness of CF. I believe that almost ANY program of strength training, no matter how bad, would have been sufficient to take Gary to a 750 plus deadlift given his DLing ability before any formal training, and his obvious overwhelming response once training began. I mean this is a guy who very well might have been able to pull a 750 after 6 months of light circut training on machines.

The only reason I posted my earlier post is to show that it is awfully hard to make absolute statements about what is possible and what is not possible when it comes to human performance.

glenn

Donald Lee 11-18-2008 04:13 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
This has been a long and painful thread, but it seems like we've gotten somewhere.

Steven Anderson 11-18-2008 04:37 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by David Wood (Post 449647)
Brandon, I really can't understand you.

Personally, and speaking *only* for myself, I regret that quote by Coach about the 500-750 pound DL (although I'm reasonably confident that he doesn't regret it, it doesn't seem to be in his nature).

I think he was flush with excitement at the possibilities he was seeing as he started to see results from larger numbers of folks than he could train personally, and he overestimated the range of what was achievable.

And (my personal opinion only, and NOT speaking as an "official" representative of CrossFit) I think he guessed wrong at the degree of carryover from being able to do 250 multiple times to being able to do 500 once. There is carryover, a lot . . . but maybe less than it looked like at the time.

But I really can't understand the hatred from you and your buddies at ********.

The quoted range was 500 - 750. A non-trivial number of CrossFitters have crossed the lower threshold (as evidenced by personal testimony and/or logsitall entries (and assuming that the logsitall stuff is from "CrossFitters")). I don't believe Coach ever asserted that every trainer would do so. So how is it a "lie" (your words)?

FWIW, I'm partially there . . . I have a 415 DL at a bodyweight of 160 (2.6x BW), with NEVER deadlifting more than called for in the WOD. Will I make it to 500? Maybe . . . it looks a long way off right now, and it's not a particularly important mission for me. Would I be there today if I was 5 inches taller and 200 pounds bodyweight? My guess is I would . . . 500 pounds would be a lower fraction of BW (if I weighed that much) than I can do now.


On the "mass building" claim, again, I can honestly say (as my personal opinion only) that I wish he had not said that (and, again, I seriously doubt that Coach thinks that way).

My own experience (validated by the pictures posted above) is that the following modification would be truer: "CrossFit will do a better job of creating the body that the *vast* majority of men and women want (which is NOT what wins bodybuilding contests) than the splits and body parts routines commonly practiced and publicized in the bodybuilding 'literature'". It's certainly true for me personally . . . I'm happier with my physique (at the decrepit old age of 53) since CrossFit than I ever was when I was body(not)building.

I recognize that that is NOT what was said . . . but my experience is that it's closer to the truth, and I think it's what most people here "get" instinctively once they start training, (and what you, apparently, don't).


Brandon, I'm trying to figure out why you feel you have the self-appointed role of public scourge? I honestly don't recall establishing that category of membership . . . did I miss something? I recognize you're a follower who needs validation from your buddies elsewhere (such a *great* group of guys over there) . . . but I'm honestly getting very tired of your ****.

You're intelligent, you've got a number of great posts to your credit . . . and yet you're the kind of person who can't see the forest for the trees. I don't get it.

OMFG! FINALLY! Well said, David.

Tim Donahey 11-18-2008 04:55 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Glenn Pendlay (Post 449780)
Gary deadlifted around 700lbs the first time he ever tried to do the exercise, and this was without any extensive prior strength training of any kind.

Wow. Freakish strength!

But, essentially Gary could have been on a strict Pilates routine and gotten the same results.

Glenn Pendlay 11-18-2008 05:55 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Tim,

True, as I mentioned in my post, the fact that Gary could almost certainly have deadlifted over 750 in a short time period with only WOD training demonstrates a lot more about Gary than it does about CF.

What this does demonstrate very well, IMO, is that there is, or should be, an understood qualifier when someone makes claims like either Coach Glassmans claim that "we can take you to a 500 to 750 deadlift in 2 years" (not exact quote i dont think, but close) and Brandons assertion that there was NO ONE that could achieve 750 on the deadlift using only the WOD.

I believe that there is NO WAY that Coach Glassman ever thought that anyone and everyone could achieve a deadlift in the 500 to 750 range using CF. He is definately not a stupid guy, and IMO to think that would be stupid. I mean, there is probably 50% of the population or more (most of it females, but still, a significant number of guys) who could NEVER achieve a 500lb deadlift without drugs, and many or most of those couldnt do it even with drugs, no matter what training protocol they used. I mean if they trained for 10 years specifically for deadlifting, with no other goal whatsoever, there is a very large number of people who even in those circumstances would never be capable of a 500lb deadlift.

I tend to think that there was an understood qualifyer, not stated but obvious enough that he probably thought it didnt need to be stated, that if you were a male of average size and genetics and not too old when you started, you should be able to DL over 500lbs in 2 years by following CF. Maybe he should have said "we can take many people" or "we can take most guys", but even though he didnt say it, I think we all know thats what he has to have meant. Like I said, Coach is a smart guy, and we all know that it would not be smart to specifically say that every single person who does CF will deadlift between 500 and 750 within 2 years, and I think that no matter how the statement was written, it is lunacy to read that into it, or hold him responsible and use the "L" word over this statement.

The thing is, Brandon also made a statement, a very specific statement, that NO ONE could achieve a 750 dl using only crossfit. No one had, no one could, no one ever would, if I remember right. Now I think that had someone sat down with Brandon, and asked him if he truly believed that there was never, in the history of human habitation of the earth, a person born with the freakish genetics that would allow them to deadlift 750lbs with little or no training, or with only WOD training, im betting that he would have backed off the "absolute" nature of his statement.

I personally believe, given the genetic outliers that have been discovered only within the extremely small gene pool of people who have tried the sport of powerlifting in the past 40 or 50 years, that I would bet money, if there were any way to prove it, that humans have been born and lived on this planet who could have deadlifted 800lbs with no training whatsoever. We will never know, but I am sure it has happened.

Now, I am willing to give Brandon the benefit of the doubt on his statement. I dont think he really meant that the man had never been born nor ever would be born that could achieve this feat... and I would agree that it is possible, maybe probable but im not so sure, that we will never see someone with no prior history of strength training, and no training outside of the WOD, perform a 750lb deadlift within 2 years of starting training. I wouldnt mind being proved wrong on that though, thats for sure!

But if someone needs to give him the benefit of the doubt regarding a statement of his that is not technically true but still when read in a realistic way pretty accurately presents his opinion that, and im putting words into his mouth here so sorry... but what I take as his general opinion and a pretty realistic stance, that a 750 deadlift within 2 years of starting training using only the WOD hasnt happened, would be extremely rare if it did happen, and might never happen.... well then I think he should give Coach Glassman the benefit of the doubt also.

And Brandon Im not trying to pick on you. But I do think this is going a bit far, and I do know that I would hate to have someone like you pick apart every thing I had written or said within the last 6 years with the same intensity as you are using with Coach Glassman. I would dare say that even without ever trying to be misleading, my words, and the words of most people, would not stand up to it. No one is 100% accurate, or 100% effective in saying absolutely perfectly what they mean 100% of the time.

glenn

Kevin B. Sandberg 11-18-2008 06:21 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Philip

On the VO2max question: the C2 site has a calculator estimating VO2max based on 2k time.

A 2k row comes up periodically in the WOD. Why don't you study the 2k postings from a variety of angles to get a sense of how VO2max is affected by the CF protocol?

I was a rower (a mediocre one) when I was younger and now at 39, training CF, 16 years after I'd stopped training for rowing, my times dropped to equal that of those when I was 23 years old and training specifically for the sport. I fully expect to drop my time further. In my estimation there is no question VO2max is effectively utilized and improved following the main site.

In addition, to that there is no question I'm also stronger and generally more capable then I've ever been in my life. Anecdotal to be sure, but when you're the anecdote, it's pretty convincing. Would I have reached it on some other permutation of GPP? I don't know. Probably not b/c I probably would not have found another program as easily and if I had I would not have been able to implement it on my own in my garage or have all the resources available online to help progress without killing myself.


As a side note: I number of years ago the men's national rowing coach, Mike Teti announced that anyone with a confirmed sub 6:00 C2 2k would be eligible to try out for the national team. Previous rowing experience was not a prereq. He did not, however, put out there "Anyone with a VO2max of such and such or better."

So, you have a fairly good VO2max estimate available that can easily be determined from a common benchmark piece. You can research it without a grant. The only cost is your time and your computer. You can call it "Estimated VO2max changes over time and across varying populations in a popular GPP program."


Good luck. Let me know how it works out.

PS You don't need to acknowledge that it was my idea. :)

Lewis Dunn 11-18-2008 06:26 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by David Wood (Post 449674)
Well, since you seem to be so deeply into the minutiae of the argument (the trees rather than the forest), I would point out that if a range is given, and any part of that range is achieved, then the claim has been met. The range does not imply that all parts of the range must be satisfied for the statement to be true . . . only that some part of it must be.If you said that (insert program here) could take you from a 200 pound DL to a DL in the range of 500 to 5,000 pounds, then, yes, a 501-pound lift satisfies the range.

David, I think you’re just the guy I’ve been looking for! I sell a proprietary diet plan by phone from my home. I guarantee that buyers will lose between one-half pound and 20 pounds per week. And, if you will help me sell this plan from your home, I will guarantee you an annual income of between $100 and $2 million.

Dude, call me. It’s guaranteed.

Glenn, here is the exact wording used by Brandon:

“Absolutely nobody has ever gone from a 200lb deadlift to a 750lb deadlift in two years using the CrossFit.com WoD. I will publicly offer a $50 finder's fee to anyone who can provide proof or reasonable testimony to knowledge of any such person, anywhere in the ranks of thousands of CrossFitters worldwide, whether present or past, or in the reasonable future, no matter how freakish or gifted.
I assert that this is an outright lie on the part of Greg Glassman. This program will not, as claimed, ever take anybody to a 750lb deadlift. This is not the same as saying it won't take everybody there. It will do so for absolutely nobody.”

Yes, there is a sentence in there that claims CF will take no one to a 750 dead. But taken in the context of the post, it is clear that he considers the starting point of 200 pounds to be part of the false claim (and if Brandon doesn’t, I certainly do). While the example you presented is impressive, the fact that the guy started with a 700, not 200, deadlift, makes it not at all pertinent to this discussion.

Brandon Oto 11-18-2008 06:29 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Thanks Glenn. Nice input. And I'm still staggered at the thought of someone pulling 700 untrained.

You're right, of course, that I'm not trying to prove some kind of logical impossibility here. But a number of people seem to be acting like this claim is some sort of challenging-but-plausible feat, undoubtedly occurring from time to time, in various locations such as CrossFit HQ although not at their gym. I find this absolutely absurd and wanted to shake off any potential apathy and reluctance by making a clear denial and giving motivation to disprove it.

Zero percent probability and near-zero percent probability are functionally identical.

The reason I'm not interested in picking you apart is because you're not marketing a business on the basis of your claims. This was a misleading assertion. I pick apart those paid advertisements on late-night television, too.

Money will stand until it's claimed or the dollar fails, guys.

Tim Donahey 11-18-2008 06:34 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Great post, Glenn. From my end, that is the final word on the subject.

Pat McElhone 11-18-2008 06:46 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq (Post 449703)
What studies are you specifically speaking of that were so bad?

Every study I have ever read! Even the orinigal Tabata study, wasn't the N=9. 9 total subject, seriously, 9 subjects. How can anyone base any scientific decisions on a study with an N=9.

David Wood 11-18-2008 07:41 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lewis Dunn (Post 449924)
David, I think you’re just the guy I’ve been looking for! I sell a proprietary diet plan by phone from my home. I guarantee that buyers will lose between one-half pound and 20 pounds per week. And, if you will help me sell this plan from your home, I will guarantee you an annual income of between $100 and $2 million.

Dude, call me. It’s guaranteed.

Glenn, here is the exact wording used by Brandon:

“Absolutely nobody has ever gone from a 200lb deadlift to a 750lb deadlift in two years using the CrossFit.com WoD. I will publicly offer a $50 finder's fee to anyone who can provide proof or reasonable testimony to knowledge of any such person, anywhere in the ranks of thousands of CrossFitters worldwide, whether present or past, or in the reasonable future, no matter how freakish or gifted.
I assert that this is an outright lie on the part of Greg Glassman. This program will not, as claimed, ever take anybody to a 750lb deadlift. This is not the same as saying it won't take everybody there. It will do so for absolutely nobody.”

Yes, there is a sentence in there that claims CF will take no one to a 750 dead. But taken in the context of the post, it is clear that he considers the starting point of 200 pounds to be part of the false claim (and if Brandon doesn’t, I certainly do). While the example you presented is impressive, the fact that the guy started with a 700, not 200, deadlift, makes it not at all pertinent to this discussion.


Hi Lewis:

1) you should probably go with that pitch as it is . . . sounds strong.

2) I find it amusing that you are determined to allow Brandon the "slack" of context, but not Coach Glassman . . . him, you grant no allowance for unstated assumptions.

3) I really can't understand folks who make an issue of this statement . . . have you no life?

Seriously, if there's someone out there (including you, Lewis) who has somehow been duped into following CrossFit because the only thing that would satisfy you, and give meaning to your miserable life, is achieving a 750-pound deadlift within two years, then I will *personally* refund every penny you ever spent for the main site WOD and for access to these forums. Every penny!!!

Please send your original receipt for these services. Please enclose $20 for shipping and handling, and I will refund every penny.

Glenn Pendlay 11-18-2008 08:13 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Lewis,

I took the following sentence "This program will not, as claimed, ever take anybody to a 750lb deadlift." to mean ANYONE, not just anyone starting at 200lbs, even given the context.

It is doubtful to me given the trainability of the deadlift compared to other lifts, that any mature man who untrained could only pull 200lbs could ever pull 600lbs, let alone 750lbs, no matter what training program they used.

Brandon,

I guess i just dont think its as low a possibility as you think it is. The more I think about it, more and more people come to mind who I think might have been able to accomplish it... There was a kid named Kyle Gulledge that I coached for a while who was and is the only teenager to ever DL over 800lbs, he pulled 830 at 19 years of age. I saw him pull 725 pretty easy after not deadlifting for about 3 or 4 months... i am not sure but I believe he pulled around 600 when he first started, and got into the upper 700's with less than a year of training. In fact I think he started training at 17 years of age... so he got to 830 pretty quick also. I think he is another possibility of someone who COULD HAVE gotten a 750lb pull, or very near it, with only 2 years of CF training.

Someone pulling 700lbs untrained like Gary Heisey is, obviously, very rare, very very rare, and perhaps absolutely unique. But 750 with 2 years of CF would not be AS rare as 700 untrained. In fact as I said the more I think about it the more likely I think it is to be done eventually, There is no doubt in my mind that there are guys out there with the genetics to make this happen, its just a matter of one of them giving CF a try.

In fact, IMO, the probably reason this hasnt happend, is that the guys that could do it are playing football, powerlifting, weightlifting, or something like that. You are not going to be getting many guys with the genetics to play defensive end in the NFL doing crossfit during the prime of their lives, because they are going to be playing defensive end in the NFL. And thats the kind of freaky genetics it would take. The guys are out there, I just dont know what the chances of one of them happening to pick up CF as a 22 year old untrained individual.

In any event, ive made my contribution, I sincerely hope that it was a positive one, and im going to try to stay off this thread. I dont want to end up argueing with anyone, that was definately not my goal in contributing.

glenn

Brandon Oto 11-18-2008 09:22 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Thanks again Glenn.

Sean Dunston 11-19-2008 09:26 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Man... you guys might have convinced me to go to 501# by 7/7/09. My affiliate opened on 7/7/07, so that would be 2 years of regular CF WODs.

When I found CF I was just a 36 year old, out of shape attorney, who was totally untrained on the DL, Presses and Squats. I still have not attended a barbell Cert - just a Level I and Gymnastics Cert.

If only I wasn't a lazy 38 year old guy who works for a living by sitting at a desk 10 hours per day - maybe I'd have a better chance to increase my DL.

Do ANY of you think I can do it by just maintaining my 4 on, 1 off, 1 on, 1 off schedule of WODs?

Ohh - and I have absolutely no need or desire to gain extra mass/bulk/weight. A 501# DL would be over 300% of my current body weight... but it is only 61# higher than my current 1RM.

Remember - my 1RM DL when I started was low 200s. I don't remember the exact number - I'll have to check the paper log at my gym.

If I did it, could we put this thing to bed? Or would it fall outside the confines about which we are speaking since it wouldn't be 750#?

David Schneider 11-19-2008 09:29 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Dunston (Post 450420)
Man... you guys might have convinced me to go to 501# by 7/7/09. My affiliate opened on 7/7/07, so that would be 2 years of regular CF WODs.

When I found CF I was just a 36 year old, out of shape attorney, who was totally untrained on the DL, Presses and Squats prior to CF. I still have not attended a barbell Cert - just a Level I and Gymnastics Cert.

If only I wasn't a lazy 38 year old guy who works work for a living by sitting at a desk 10 hours per day - maybe I'd have a better chance to increase my DL.

Do ANY of you think I can do it by just maintaining my 4 on, 1 off, 1 on, 1 off schedule of WODs?

Ohh - and I have absolutely no need or desire to gain extra mass/bulk/weight. A 501# DL would be over 300% of my current body weight... but it is only 61# higher than my current 1RM.

Remember - my 1RM DL when I started was low 200s. I don't remember the exact number - I'll have to check the paper log at my gym.

If I did it, could we put this thing to bed? Or would it fall outside the confines about which we are speaking since it wouldn't be 750#?

Get em' Sean :weight_l:

Justin Gross 11-19-2008 10:41 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Dunston (Post 450420)
If I did it, could we put this thing to bed?

These gnats will never quit, it's not in their makeup. When their questions get answered they find some other random number or word to obsess on.
They will always be here, just like the people posting "What's up with the politics, I thought this was an exercise site?" in the rest day comments.

Tate Rivera 11-19-2008 10:51 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Dunston (Post 450420)
Man... you guys might have convinced me to go to 501# by 7/7/09. My affiliate opened on 7/7/07, so that would be 2 years of regular CF WODs.

When I found CF I was just a 36 year old, out of shape attorney, who was totally untrained on the DL, Presses and Squats. I still have not attended a barbell Cert - just a Level I and Gymnastics Cert.

If only I wasn't a lazy 38 year old guy who works for a living by sitting at a desk 10 hours per day - maybe I'd have a better chance to increase my DL.

Do ANY of you think I can do it by just maintaining my 4 on, 1 off, 1 on, 1 off schedule of WODs?

Ohh - and I have absolutely no need or desire to gain extra mass/bulk/weight. A 501# DL would be over 300% of my current body weight... but it is only 61# higher than my current 1RM.

Remember - my 1RM DL when I started was low 200s. I don't remember the exact number - I'll have to check the paper log at my gym.

If I did it, could we put this thing to bed? Or would it fall outside the confines about which we are speaking since it wouldn't be 750#?

DO IT!! That would be sweet! As long as its in the range...

Phillip Garrison 11-19-2008 11:25 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat McElhone (Post 449941)
Every study I have ever read! Even the orinigal Tabata study, wasn't the N=9. 9 total subject, seriously, 9 subjects. How can anyone base any scientific decisions on a study with an N=9.

The initial study prompted other studies with more samples all of which have suggested the same thing. High intensity intervals with a 2:1 work/rest ratio increase anaerobic and aerobic capacity. You honestly mean to tell me not a single study ever done in science was of any value?

Phillip Garrison 11-19-2008 11:29 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin B. Sandberg (Post 449917)
Philip

On the VO2max question: the C2 site has a calculator estimating VO2max based on 2k time.

A 2k row comes up periodically in the WOD. Why don't you study the 2k postings from a variety of angles to get a sense of how VO2max is affected by the CF protocol?

I was a rower (a mediocre one) when I was younger and now at 39, training CF, 16 years after I'd stopped training for rowing, my times dropped to equal that of those when I was 23 years old and training specifically for the sport. I fully expect to drop my time further. In my estimation there is no question VO2max is effectively utilized and improved following the main site.

In addition, to that there is no question I'm also stronger and generally more capable then I've ever been in my life. Anecdotal to be sure, but when you're the anecdote, it's pretty convincing. Would I have reached it on some other permutation of GPP? I don't know. Probably not b/c I probably would not have found another program as easily and if I had I would not have been able to implement it on my own in my garage or have all the resources available online to help progress without killing myself.


As a side note: I number of years ago the men's national rowing coach, Mike Teti announced that anyone with a confirmed sub 6:00 C2 2k would be eligible to try out for the national team. Previous rowing experience was not a prereq. He did not, however, put out there "Anyone with a VO2max of such and such or better."

So, you have a fairly good VO2max estimate available that can easily be determined from a common benchmark piece. You can research it without a grant. The only cost is your time and your computer. You can call it "Estimated VO2max changes over time and across varying populations in a popular GPP program."


Good luck. Let me know how it works out.

PS You don't need to acknowledge that it was my idea. :)

It will be our little secret. No one here is suggesting that VO2 is the be all end all metric of fitness. It's only one metric of many that make of the contiuum of fitness. For some sports VO2 is very important, for some it matters almost not at all. What me and others are stating is that for us to make the claims that CF provides the greatest all around fitness gains, we need to verify that CF'rs have the highest average measurements in many measurable metrics of fitness (power, strength, speed, agility, balance, flexibility, endurance, etc)

Robert Wolf 11-19-2008 12:37 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Aye...work on my book or peese away time arguing with people who just want to argue? Can I just blanket statement that all links are WFS?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq (Post 447092)
last I checked, crossfit was a fitness system, not a sport. Saying that doing WOD's make you really good at CF, as proof of it's superiority is like saying rowing is the best, because nothing else will get you as good at a rowing race as rowing training

Phil-
You love this rowing analogy...are you aware that CF'ers routinely rank in the Olympic calibre level when tested on the erg? Talk to Angela Hart from C2 about it. Can these same CF'ers win in an actually skull? Of course not, one pull, capsize and done...but they have the engine to crush.

Also...not everyone is clueless to the fact that VO2 max is worthless and work capacity reigns...just some folks apparently:
VO2

A nice money shot quote from that article:

So, if you’ve been training well for the past year and your VO2max is in the 50’s, don’t hold your breath to be the next Lance. The good news is that your lactate threshold is highly trainable, and elevating your LT will put the hurt on your friends or fellow racers. Since many elite athletes share comparable VO2max values, lactate threshold is often a better measure of fitness and endurance performance. And that is a perfect segue into our discussion next week….

Which leads to the next piece, Lactate Threshold.

This all mirrors EXACTLY what has been said by John, Tony, myself...but this will simply be dismissed with "IT does not reflect the literature..." Well, I guess I loose.

I tagged a bunch of quotes so this may get a little redundant...but obviously the message is not sinking in. Phil, there are thousands of firefighters (to name but one sub-group) who have at some point: run 5-10k, tinkered with bodybuilding, and done crossfit in the hopes of improving performance. Our very own Adam Lambert (firefighter Fran) is a perfect example of this. He taught a special firefighter only class yesterday with folks from all over california...the topic? CrossFit. Not 5K's, not bodybuilding, not strong-man. So what you are saying, is that Adam and all the people like him...SEALS, SWAT etc...all these folks are suffering some kind of mass-delusion and YOU have the goods? This I so preposterous I feel silly for even giving this the credibility of a response.


Quote:

Originally Posted by George Noble (Post 447902)
It's hard to say, and it's speculation. CrossFit has shown that work done in the anaerobic pathways has a carryover to the oxidative pathway. CrossFit is only just responding to the fact that Gant's hybrid worked very well for increasing fitness, and CF certainly isn't the only way to train. It could be that more strength work is needed for optimum fitness. As you say, it's speculation.

I agree with you about speculation. That's why I don't think anyone should claim that a routine can add 550 lbs to someone's deadlift when it never has (at least, nobody has answered my question about where these 750 DLs are), especially not in the same breath as calling for "evidence based fitness." I really did think CF was above this ridiculous muscle mag hyperbole.

This is interesting that folks seem to think tinkering with the base concepts of functionality, intensity and variation is somehow a vast departure. Most of my clients roll in the door with no experience in the basic lifts and are woefully deficient in strength. Solution? We squat, DL, Press and pull in nearly every session. Then we wrap things up with a short-medium WOD. This is the job of the coaches to tailor the training to the needs of their clients.

As to the 500-750lb DL's- The contest of this statement was when Coach Glassman was still at the old Santa Cruz box. I made my first trip down to SC in March '03 if I remember correctly. My first session there we worked DL, then wrapped up with a WOD in which you: Found your 500m row time, rested 3 min, found your time for completing 30 reps of thrusters with 95lbs, rested 3 min, then found time to completion for 30 pull-ups. Of my subsequent visists, this was very typical programming. One time when we had like 40 people at the old original box we did a chipper...but the bolk of training was core lifts, couplets, and triplets. Off the top of my head I saw 3 people with 500lb+ DL's and one guy, a BJJ black belt, who pulled 695 for a double like it was filled with helium. I left before he foudn his top end for that day, but he obviously had more in him. His first exposure to the DL stopped at ~185 lbs due to orthopedic and recruitment issues...he was plenty strong to pull more but his tightness and form precluded loading him up beyond this point. This was ~ 2 years before the day that I saw him pull the 695. I believe this is the refrence for the much hated 500-750DL stats.

In the past few months I've shifted focus to OL'ing and sprints, with occasional forays into things like fran, grace and shorter WOD's. I'm at a 400lb BS, knocking on the door to a 500lb DL.

The issue y'all seem to have is whether the WOD as posted at CF.com will produce these results...yes it will...if properly tailored to YOUR needs. Tens of thousands of people follow the main page WOD. HOW exactly is it reasonable to tinker the programming to meet EVERYONES needs? If it is beyond your intelects that you might need to modify the base programming I think you might be beyond help.


Quote:

Originally Posted by John C. Brown (Post 447934)
No, you said that VO2 max is a predictor for successful firefighting. If that is the case then these bike riders would be successful at firefighting. I say they wouldn't be even if I spot them another 200 points on their VO2 max testy thingy.

And Fires aren't a hypoxia problem either, fire fighters wear air tanks. The question becomes how many times will they have to get a new tank during the duration of the fire. In which case VO2 max has some relevance, but only if they are strong enough to carry the tanks... plus an axe, hose, potentially a buddy or a burn victim. For that situation riding a bike is not going to help much.

Look, all people are trying to tell you is that CrossFit's definition of fitness is clear. He who can do the most work (in all time domains and presumably any task) is the fittest. These are the demands of life. The caveman that could crush competitors with the biggest rock would only survive if he could out run the mammoth too, the guy that could do both would survive longest.

Spoken from a point of experience in the field...and completely ignored by these guys. What John is talking about is not just VO2 max, but VO2 MIN...what is the most you can accomplish with the minimum oxygen consumption? CrossFit dramatically improves this number...but it's not been published in Phil's ex-phys journals yet so it's just mass-hypnosis...again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Noble (Post 447949)
You personally have nothing to apologise for. I'm taking issue with Glassman's statement that Brandon Oto pointed out, claiming that CF could take a deadlift from 200 to 500-750 lbs in two years (and thus making CrossFit better for making world class powerlifters than any specific powerlifting/strength routine - I don't even think Mark Rippetoe has ever claimed such feats). Until I hear of that actually happening I say it's BS.

Call it BS, call it spam-ala-mode...you are simply wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Donahey (Post 447962)
I agree. Crossfit won't take your deadlift to 500-750 in two years without some specific training. Crossfit has you maxing out on deadlift maybe 1-2x a month, so let's say we max out on deadlifts maybe 18x a year. That means you'd have to add an average of 8-15 lbs to your 1RM every time you deadlifted (36x) over a two year timespan. I just don't think that's feasible outside of a strength program.

I could be wrong though. Anyone here done this on Crossfit only training?

More frequent exposure is totally reasonable. Lots of work, but reasonable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darrell E. White (Post 447968)
Tim:

Coach Glassman addressed that in one of his posts here. The questions that were emailed were inflammatory and not designed to foster a frank and open discussion of CF, or even of the differences in opinion about CF held outside of the community. If you've also been reading elsewhere here on the Message Board and on the Main Page Comments you would see that Coach has had an ongoing dialog with the author; my bet is that we will see a follow up article.

Gant Grimes "Hybrid" is Crossfit. Go back and read "What is Crossfit", as well as everything in "Start Here" on the Main Page. Gant has combined focused strength work with doublet and triplet WOD's that are shorter and heavier than the typical Main Page WOD, but the met-con WOD's are Crossfit. Any statement to the contrary is inaccurate. Crossfit is more than the Main Page WOD.

Exactly.

Robert Wolf 11-19-2008 12:37 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Donahey (Post 448093)
It incorporates principles from Westside Barbell, Bulgarian Training Manuals, and The Texas Method. These are concepts outside the scope of Crossfit's Theoretical Programming Template.

So CrossFit is incapable of growth and development? Bummer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joey Powell (Post 448279)
Actually, VO2 max is not a good indicator at all. At the Fire Fighter Challenges the CrossFitters have been known to use LESS air than their counter-parts for the same amount of work completed even when time in the mask is settled out.

A big VO2 max is big engine and big Fuel/oxygen mix... this is being turned on it's head with the amount of air left in the bottles by CF'ers.

VO2 max may indeed be a by-product of fitness, but evidence supports that it maybe not even that, wnen you train to make the engine more efficient using CF protocols.

So is it a good way of measuring fitness?? Only if you think the CF'ers who win the Fire-fighter challenges are LESS fit than their losing competetors...

Good stuff Joey, spot on.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Donahey (Post 448515)
If I came up with a Crossfit/Yoga hybrid would that still be Crossfit just because we Samson Stretch?

To put a clearer point on it, the GG Hybrid has less to do with Crossfit than it has to do with strength. Yes Crossfit and GG Hybrid both use sets of 1/3/5 in the major lifts, but GG didn't borrow that from Crossfit, Crossfit borrowed that from the same place GG did. Not Crossfit. Yes both Crossfit and the GG Hybrid use gymnastics and bodyweight movements, but GG didn't borrow that from CF either, CF borrowed it from the same place GG did. Again, not Crossfit. The only singular aspect that Crossfit and the GG Hybrid share are the met-cons, which are significantly shorter and heavier than most anything on the front page. In fact the metcons are so different that they necessitated that new ones be made up altogether.

HOW is this different? If your goal lies in short time domains, time index appropriately. If your goal is a "broad, general inclusive fitness" program appropriate to this goal. Why is a line in the sand drawn saying "this is CF, that is not"? Is a shorter, strength oriented focus consistent with the Defn of fitness? Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps this is a period of focus...seasonality in training. But wait! We can't change things in the "constantly varried" program! Yes, we can and smart coaches/athletes do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq (Post 448569)
What I'm saying is an above average VO2 according to research is one of the predictors of succes as a firefighter. Not the only predictor

Bullocks. VO2 is modality specific...these people are preparing for the unknown and unknowable. Time to extricate yourself from the index card files and go spend some time with people who actually DO this for a living.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq (Post 448626)
The research would suggest otherwise. It's not my research if you disagree talk to the authors of the studies.

Stop everything folks! The research indicates high carb diets are the cure to cancer, diabetes and heart disease. It also indicates that 5-10 runs are a better preparation than CrossFit for fighting fire, MMA and well, apparently everything but strong man which also apparently trumps CrossFit. Phil, train a group of fighters and make them do strong man MWF, with 5-10k runs T/TH/Sat...then lets see who has the goods?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Walls (Post 448629)
That is exactly what everyone here is trying to tell you, the research is wrong. If it's not yours why are you fighting so hard to defend it? Why is it all you post is just a quick "nope you're wrong. I am a scientist. Prove it."


And not only is the research wrong, but these "measures" of fitness that you demand we test, we argue are not valid measures. VO2 max doesn't mean anything as far as CrossFit's definition of fitness is concerned.

Because Chris, when you have no leg to stand on in the real world ( like Phil) you cite the western equivalent of VooDoo: Scientific Research. Only in academia can we see lies, fabrications and buffoonery gain a "Peer Reviewed" stamp of approval. The CrossFit approach has ALWAYS been: Here is how we define the terms of fitness, here is how we go about achieving those aims. It's all available for free on the web, if you have something better or a way to improve the programming, do it

Phil, Brandon-
I've taken a LOT of time from a very busy schedule to answer the main issues you have raised. Buy it, Don't buy it. I could give a phuck. My question or thought though runs along this line: What have YOU two done to promote ANYTHING of value here or elsewhere? I really get the sense that this is about looking like smarty-pants, being contrarian for the sake of...being contrarian. I'm all about spirited debate...I've gone around with people like Mcdougal and T. Colin Campbell on nutrition topics but once the two camps have made their cases and it's obvious no one is really budging on a topic...it's time to just call it quits.

Sean Dunston 11-19-2008 12:52 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Thanks, Robb. Great post.

Wait. Does this mean I no longer need to see if I will hit a 500#+ DL by next July?

:rofl:

Chris Walls 11-19-2008 12:54 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Why wouldn't you? ;)

Ganine Vanalst 11-19-2008 01:00 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Wolf (Post 450639)
I've taken a LOT of time from a very busy schedule to answer the main issues you have raised

Thank you for taking the time. Nice point-by-point rebuttals and clarifications.

Phillip Garrison 11-19-2008 01:23 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Wolf (Post 450638)
Aye...work on my book or peese away time arguing with people who just want to argue? Can I just blanket statement that all links are WFS?


Phil-
You love this rowing analogy...are you aware that CF'ers routinely rank in the Olympic calibre level when tested on the erg? Talk to Angela Hart from C2 about it. Can these same CF'ers win in an actually skull? Of course not, one pull, capsize and done...but they have the engine to crush.

Also...not everyone is clueless to the fact that VO2 max is worthless and work capacity reigns...just some folks apparently:
VO2

A nice money shot quote from that article:

So, if you’ve been training well for the past year and your VO2max is in the 50’s, don’t hold your breath to be the next Lance. The good news is that your lactate threshold is highly trainable, and elevating your LT will put the hurt on your friends or fellow racers. Since many elite athletes share comparable VO2max values, lactate threshold is often a better measure of fitness and endurance performance. And that is a perfect segue into our discussion next week….

Which leads to the next piece, Lactate Threshold.

This all mirrors EXACTLY what has been said by John, Tony, myself...but this will simply be dismissed with "IT does not reflect the literature..." Well, I guess I loose.

I tagged a bunch of quotes so this may get a little redundant...but obviously the message is not sinking in. Phil, there are thousands of firefighters (to name but one sub-group) who have at some point: run 5-10k, tinkered with bodybuilding, and done crossfit in the hopes of improving performance. Our very own Adam Lambert (firefighter Fran) is a perfect example of this. He taught a special firefighter only class yesterday with folks from all over california...the topic? CrossFit. Not 5K's, not bodybuilding, not strong-man. So what you are saying, is that Adam and all the people like him...SEALS, SWAT etc...all these folks are suffering some kind of mass-delusion and YOU have the goods? This I so preposterous I feel silly for even giving this the credibility of a response.



This is interesting that folks seem to think tinkering with the base concepts of functionality, intensity and variation is somehow a vast departure. Most of my clients roll in the door with no experience in the basic lifts and are woefully deficient in strength. Solution? We squat, DL, Press and pull in nearly every session. Then we wrap things up with a short-medium WOD. This is the job of the coaches to tailor the training to the needs of their clients.

As to the 500-750lb DL's- The contest of this statement was when Coach Glassman was still at the old Santa Cruz box. I made my first trip down to SC in March '03 if I remember correctly. My first session there we worked DL, then wrapped up with a WOD in which you: Found your 500m row time, rested 3 min, found your time for completing 30 reps of thrusters with 95lbs, rested 3 min, then found time to completion for 30 pull-ups. Of my subsequent visists, this was very typical programming. One time when we had like 40 people at the old original box we did a chipper...but the bolk of training was core lifts, couplets, and triplets. Off the top of my head I saw 3 people with 500lb+ DL's and one guy, a BJJ black belt, who pulled 695 for a double like it was filled with helium. I left before he foudn his top end for that day, but he obviously had more in him. His first exposure to the DL stopped at ~185 lbs due to orthopedic and recruitment issues...he was plenty strong to pull more but his tightness and form precluded loading him up beyond this point. This was ~ 2 years before the day that I saw him pull the 695. I believe this is the refrence for the much hated 500-750DL stats.

In the past few months I've shifted focus to OL'ing and sprints, with occasional forays into things like fran, grace and shorter WOD's. I'm at a 400lb BS, knocking on the door to a 500lb DL.

The issue y'all seem to have is whether the WOD as posted at CF.com will produce these results...yes it will...if properly tailored to YOUR needs. Tens of thousands of people follow the main page WOD. HOW exactly is it reasonable to tinker the programming to meet EVERYONES needs? If it is beyond your intelects that you might need to modify the base programming I think you might be beyond help.




Spoken from a point of experience in the field...and completely ignored by these guys. What John is talking about is not just VO2 max, but VO2 MIN...what is the most you can accomplish with the minimum oxygen consumption? CrossFit dramatically improves this number...but it's not been published in Phil's ex-phys journals yet so it's just mass-hypnosis...again.





Exactly.


I never said it was mass hypnosis. What I said was, if we want greater legitamecy and also to improve CF over time we need to hold Cf to the scrutiny of real research. You guys seem to be hung up on VO2 as if it's the only metric for which I think we need to be concerned. If you actually look through my posts you will find I've stated it's one of many many metrics we need to look at and test for increased improvement in, along with anaerobic power, anaerobic endurance, LT, muscular power, muscular endurance, speed, agility, flexibility and so on and so forth. I never stated having a high VO was the only determinant in success in rowing, firefighting or any sport. The example you pose that doing CF doesn't guarenteee succes in real rowing proves my point. We make claims that CF improves fitness over 10 dimensions of fitness, yet we also argue that work capacity if the definition of fitness from our terms. These are two opposing mindsets.

I also have and do currently teach firefighter fitness classes both for current and recruit firefighters. We test VO2 max, along with many other metrics. While an above VO2 is a correlate, it is by no means the only correlate. Which is the whole point of CF, that no one metric is the ultimate definition of fitness

Phillip Garrison 11-19-2008 01:35 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Wolf (Post 450639)
So CrossFit is incapable of growth and development? Bummer.





Bullocks. VO2 is modality specific...these people are preparing for the unknown and unknowable. Time to extricate yourself from the index card files and go spend some time with people who actually DO this for a living.


I'm not a researcher by trade I'm a working S&C coach for a college, and among the classes I teach are firefighter training, so I'm not talking from just purely theory. Aerobic fitness and VO2 is not specific to only one modality of training. If firefighting training is designed to prepare the firefighters for the unknown and unknowable, than shouldn't we prepare them for all metabolic pathways and increased efficiancy in all them including VO2 max and aerobic fitness as well as alactic anaerobic and lactic aerobic respiration?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Wolf (Post 450639)
Stop everything folks! The research indicates high carb diets are the cure to cancer, diabetes and heart disease. It also indicates that 5-10 runs are a better preparation than CrossFit for fighting fire, MMA and well, apparently everything but strong man which also apparently trumps CrossFit. Phil, train a group of fighters and make them do strong man MWF, with 5-10k runs T/TH/Sat...then lets see who has the goods?

The research also indicates that high protein low carb, and paleo diets reduce cancer and heart disease and diabetes, and that interval training can increase aerobic capacity as well or better than traditional slow paced aerobic training. I've worked with MMA fighters and train many modalities and metabolic systems in fact I'm currently doing research on MMA for publication.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Wolf (Post 450639)
Because Chris, when you have no leg to stand on in the real world ( like Phil) you cite the western equivalent of VooDoo: Scientific Research. Only in academia can we see lies, fabrications and buffoonery gain a "Peer Reviewed" stamp of approval. The CrossFit approach has ALWAYS been: Here is how we define the terms of fitness, here is how we go about achieving those aims. It's all available for free on the web, if you have something better or a way to improve the programming, do it
.

If I don't have a leg to stand on in the real world, than who does? All of the training principles upon which CF is based have been validated in the gym, on the track, and in the lab, otherwise why would we be doing them? Exactly how do you define fitness is 10 modalities like the main page says, or just one?

Nick Cummings 11-19-2008 01:47 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Phillip, let it go man. Its over.

Tim Donahey 11-19-2008 01:51 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Gross (Post 450488)
They will always be here, just like the people posting "What's up with the politics, I thought this was an exercise site?"

Yeah, what is up with that. :p

Chris Walls 11-19-2008 01:52 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq (Post 450698)
If firefighting training is designed to prepare the firefighters for the unknown and unknowable, than shouldn't we prepare them for all metabolic pathways and increased efficiancy in all them including VO2 max and aerobic fitness as well as alactic anaerobic and lactic aerobic respiration?

This sounds to me like "increased work capacity across broad time and modal domains"

Phillip Garrison 11-19-2008 01:58 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Cummings (Post 450711)
Phillip, let it go man. Its over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiZdY9rw-uo

"Nothing's over, you just can't turn it off"

Phillip Garrison 11-19-2008 01:59 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Walls (Post 450719)
This sounds to me like "increased work capacity across broad time and modal domains"

Work capacity in several domains. But to know what domains you've improved in, you got to test them.

Chris Walls 11-19-2008 02:04 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq (Post 450732)
Work capacity in several domains. But to know what domains you've improved in, you got to test them.

By say, doing a 5k, 10k, 15k run, 1RM lifts, 2-20 minute intense efforts with heavy weight, intermediate weight, or bodyweight only? 500-2000m rows?

Oh wait, those results aren't sciency enough. :)

Sean Dunston 11-19-2008 02:10 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Walls (Post 450653)
Why wouldn't you? ;)

:rofl:

Chris-

Like I said about 10 pages back in this thread -- pulling a massive DL is really not one of my goals, but I have seen the numbers climb very quickly.

I was never introduced to olympic lifts prior to CF either, and we really didn't start working with them until maybe January of this year (they require a great deal more skill than the power lifts, IMO)... They have caught my interest lately and I'd much rather work on those lifts because I think I have much more room for improvement... and technique seems like it goes SOOOOO far in improving the numbers.

I'd love to enter an Oly lifting event at the 69 Kg weight class just to see how I do. Since I'm 38, I guess I'd be in the "masters" category? How many little, old guys are out there doing this stuff, anyway?

Chris Walls 11-19-2008 02:11 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Dunston (Post 450741)
:rofl:

Chris-

Like I said about 10 pages back in this thread -- pulling a massive DL is really not one of my goals, but I have seen the numbers climb very quickly.

I was never introduced to olympic lifts prior to CF either, and we really didn't start working with them until maybe January of this year (they require a great deal more skill than the power lifts, IMO)... They have caught my interest lately and I'd much rather work on those lifts because I think I have much more room for improvement... and technique seems like it goes SOOOOO far in improving the numbers.

I'd love to enter an Oly lifting event at the 69 Kg weight class just to see how I do. Since I'm 38, I guess I'd be in the "masters" category? How many little, old guys are out there doing this stuff, anyway?

Well how can you expect to C+J 500 lbs if you can't even deadlift it?!

:D

Tim Donahey 11-19-2008 02:12 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Wolf (Post 450639)
HOW is this different? If your goal lies in short time domains, time index appropriately. If your goal is a "broad, general inclusive fitness" program appropriate to this goal. Why is a line in the sand drawn saying "this is CF, that is not"? Is a shorter, strength oriented focus consistent with the Defn of fitness? Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps this is a period of focus...seasonality in training. But wait! We can't change things in the "constantly varried" program! Yes, we can and smart coaches/athletes do.

You're right... it's kinda a dumb argument on my part. When I think of "Crossfit," though, I think of the WOD. But that is not everybodys, or even most people's, definition. Yes, the goals of GG Hybrid are the same as the goals of Crossfit. I think there is a line to be drawn in the sand though, but I don't really care where it is... we're all just trying to enjoy the beach.

Phillip Garrison 11-19-2008 02:50 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Walls (Post 450735)
By say, doing a 5k, 10k, 15k run, 1RM lifts, 2-20 minute intense efforts with heavy weight, intermediate weight, or bodyweight only? 500-2000m rows?

Oh wait, those results aren't sciency enough. :)

Sure they work for me, so long as we measure O2 consumption and force production at some point.


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