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-   -   T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit (http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=38880)

Chris Walls 11-19-2008 02:53 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq (Post 450793)
Sure they work for me, so long as we measure O2 consumption and force production at some point.

Why do you have to measure O2 consumption if you can show improvements in aerobic and anaerobic capacity? Force production, does not a 1RM effort show this? Maybe not in the terms you're used to, but seriously, why aren't these enough? (genuinely curious here....) And don't just say "because that's how these things have always been measured" because I won't accept that as a valid reason for me. That'd be up there with using "I was drunk" as an excuse for anything.

Phillip Garrison 11-19-2008 02:54 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Donahey (Post 450748)
You're right... it's kinda a dumb argument on my part. When I think of "Crossfit," though, I think of the WOD. But that is not everybodys, or even most people's, definition. Yes, the goals of GG Hybrid are the same as the goals of Crossfit. I think there is a line to be drawn in the sand though, but I don't really care where it is... we're all just trying to enjoy the beach.


When I think of CF I think of broadly inclusive fitness, which is a different definition for everyone. For some it's being a better climber, for some a better SWAT officer, for some it's looking better in a bathing suit. Use it for what you need.

Phillip Garrison 11-19-2008 03:02 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Walls (Post 450798)
Why do you have to measure O2 consumption if you can show improvements in aerobic and anaerobic capacity? Force production, does not a 1RM effort show this? Maybe not in the terms you're used to, but seriously, why aren't these enough? (genuinely curious here....) And don't just say "because that's how these things have always been measured" because I won't accept that as a valid reason for me. That'd be up there with using "I was drunk" as an excuse for anything.

Well improvements in time for a 5k, 10k, etc are due to many factors including VO2. Also by measuring consumption and exhalation we can determine Respiratory Quotients at various levels.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_quotient

By knowing this we can tell when the athlete has transitioned from anaerobic to aerobic systems, lactate thresholds, the type of fuel consumed etc. From this type of data we can tweak and fine tune a CF protocol to fit the needs of the athletes doing it, since not everyone does CF for the exact same reasons.

1RM and force production are related, but they are not exactly interchangeable again due to many factors. For example two people with exact peak force production (FP) could have different back sqaut 1 RM's and different rates of force production (RFP). A study that just came out showed that doing ballistic training increase peak power (PP) and RFP, but did not show an increase in FP or 1RM. Doing tests like this can show exactly where strength and performance increments are being made, and this data can be incorporated into adjusting a program to improve the needs of your athletes.

George Noble 11-19-2008 03:06 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Thanks for the good posts Robb.

Chris Walls 11-19-2008 03:07 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq (Post 450806)
Well improvements in time for a 5k, 10k, ... adjusting a program to improve the needs of your athletes.


So how would one go about setting up this kind of testing for "normal" programs? Like how has it been done in the past to other programs.

Phillip Garrison 11-19-2008 03:15 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Walls (Post 450813)
So how would one go about setting up this kind of testing for "normal" programs? Like how has it been done in the past to other programs.

Well you could use heart rate monitors to calculate between aerobic and lactate systems. Certain hr zones correlate to certain systems and RQ's ( we know this based on studies). There are also portbale gas masks athletes can wear which will measure O2/CO2 ratios pretty cheap and easily. Also you can use metabolic urine and blood strips strips immediately after exercise to determine current fuel usage states.

Sean Dunston 11-19-2008 03:17 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq (Post 450824)
Well you could use heart rate monitors to calculate between aerobic and lactate systems. Certain hr zones correlate to certain systems and RQ's ( we know this based on studies). There are also portbale gas masks athletes can wear which will measure O2/CO2 ratios pretty cheap and easily. Also you can use metabolic urine and blood strips strips immediately after exercise to determine current fuel usage states.

Are these measurements going to tell my whether isolation movements on machines at the Local Globo are more or less effective at increasing my 1RM lifts vs multi-joint movements as used in CF Affiliates?

Matthew Stafford 11-19-2008 03:22 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
What's with the anti-science sentiment?

Robert D Taylor Jr 11-19-2008 03:23 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Wouldn't measureable increases in speed strength power and endurance be just as valid as increased VO2? It seems that you're stuck on the science and everyone is trying to say but look over here, this stuff is working. Most FF that you train are going to care about the science more than the result I'll bet.
Those results show up in workout logs and the comments section all over this site. I recognise there are limits to this as a research tool, but every other method suggested has been as limited, so here we are.

Chris Walls 11-19-2008 03:24 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq (Post 450824)
Well you could use heart rate monitors to calculate between aerobic and lactate systems. Certain hr zones correlate to certain systems and RQ's ( we know this based on studies). There are also portbale gas masks athletes can wear which will measure O2/CO2 ratios pretty cheap and easily. Also you can use metabolic urine and blood strips strips immediately after exercise to determine current fuel usage states.

The whole heart rate thing doesn't really sit well with me as it's not a hard and fast rule, hence the whole BS "fat burning" zone for heart rate. It's so individual for what your max HR etc actually is...

But lets just say I strap an HR monitor on my athletes here, put the mask on them, have them pee on the sticks and do the blood strip test (like a fingerprick diabetic test?)

How many people would we need? What types of age groups? Trained, or untrained? new to CF or been at it a while? How long does this go on and do we test every workout or just at specific intervals?


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