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-   -   T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit (http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=38880)

Lewis Dunn 11-18-2008 06:26 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by David Wood (Post 449674)
Well, since you seem to be so deeply into the minutiae of the argument (the trees rather than the forest), I would point out that if a range is given, and any part of that range is achieved, then the claim has been met. The range does not imply that all parts of the range must be satisfied for the statement to be true . . . only that some part of it must be.If you said that (insert program here) could take you from a 200 pound DL to a DL in the range of 500 to 5,000 pounds, then, yes, a 501-pound lift satisfies the range.

David, I think youíre just the guy Iíve been looking for! I sell a proprietary diet plan by phone from my home. I guarantee that buyers will lose between one-half pound and 20 pounds per week. And, if you will help me sell this plan from your home, I will guarantee you an annual income of between $100 and $2 million.

Dude, call me. Itís guaranteed.

Glenn, here is the exact wording used by Brandon:

ďAbsolutely nobody has ever gone from a 200lb deadlift to a 750lb deadlift in two years using the CrossFit.com WoD. I will publicly offer a $50 finder's fee to anyone who can provide proof or reasonable testimony to knowledge of any such person, anywhere in the ranks of thousands of CrossFitters worldwide, whether present or past, or in the reasonable future, no matter how freakish or gifted.
I assert that this is an outright lie on the part of Greg Glassman. This program will not, as claimed, ever take anybody to a 750lb deadlift. This is not the same as saying it won't take everybody there. It will do so for absolutely nobody.Ē

Yes, there is a sentence in there that claims CF will take no one to a 750 dead. But taken in the context of the post, it is clear that he considers the starting point of 200 pounds to be part of the false claim (and if Brandon doesnít, I certainly do). While the example you presented is impressive, the fact that the guy started with a 700, not 200, deadlift, makes it not at all pertinent to this discussion.

Brandon Oto 11-18-2008 06:29 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Thanks Glenn. Nice input. And I'm still staggered at the thought of someone pulling 700 untrained.

You're right, of course, that I'm not trying to prove some kind of logical impossibility here. But a number of people seem to be acting like this claim is some sort of challenging-but-plausible feat, undoubtedly occurring from time to time, in various locations such as CrossFit HQ although not at their gym. I find this absolutely absurd and wanted to shake off any potential apathy and reluctance by making a clear denial and giving motivation to disprove it.

Zero percent probability and near-zero percent probability are functionally identical.

The reason I'm not interested in picking you apart is because you're not marketing a business on the basis of your claims. This was a misleading assertion. I pick apart those paid advertisements on late-night television, too.

Money will stand until it's claimed or the dollar fails, guys.

Tim Donahey 11-18-2008 06:34 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Great post, Glenn. From my end, that is the final word on the subject.

Pat McElhone 11-18-2008 06:46 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq (Post 449703)
What studies are you specifically speaking of that were so bad?

Every study I have ever read! Even the orinigal Tabata study, wasn't the N=9. 9 total subject, seriously, 9 subjects. How can anyone base any scientific decisions on a study with an N=9.

David Wood 11-18-2008 07:41 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lewis Dunn (Post 449924)
David, I think you’re just the guy I’ve been looking for! I sell a proprietary diet plan by phone from my home. I guarantee that buyers will lose between one-half pound and 20 pounds per week. And, if you will help me sell this plan from your home, I will guarantee you an annual income of between $100 and $2 million.

Dude, call me. It’s guaranteed.

Glenn, here is the exact wording used by Brandon:

“Absolutely nobody has ever gone from a 200lb deadlift to a 750lb deadlift in two years using the CrossFit.com WoD. I will publicly offer a $50 finder's fee to anyone who can provide proof or reasonable testimony to knowledge of any such person, anywhere in the ranks of thousands of CrossFitters worldwide, whether present or past, or in the reasonable future, no matter how freakish or gifted.
I assert that this is an outright lie on the part of Greg Glassman. This program will not, as claimed, ever take anybody to a 750lb deadlift. This is not the same as saying it won't take everybody there. It will do so for absolutely nobody.”

Yes, there is a sentence in there that claims CF will take no one to a 750 dead. But taken in the context of the post, it is clear that he considers the starting point of 200 pounds to be part of the false claim (and if Brandon doesn’t, I certainly do). While the example you presented is impressive, the fact that the guy started with a 700, not 200, deadlift, makes it not at all pertinent to this discussion.


Hi Lewis:

1) you should probably go with that pitch as it is . . . sounds strong.

2) I find it amusing that you are determined to allow Brandon the "slack" of context, but not Coach Glassman . . . him, you grant no allowance for unstated assumptions.

3) I really can't understand folks who make an issue of this statement . . . have you no life?

Seriously, if there's someone out there (including you, Lewis) who has somehow been duped into following CrossFit because the only thing that would satisfy you, and give meaning to your miserable life, is achieving a 750-pound deadlift within two years, then I will *personally* refund every penny you ever spent for the main site WOD and for access to these forums. Every penny!!!

Please send your original receipt for these services. Please enclose $20 for shipping and handling, and I will refund every penny.

Glenn Pendlay 11-18-2008 08:13 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Lewis,

I took the following sentence "This program will not, as claimed, ever take anybody to a 750lb deadlift." to mean ANYONE, not just anyone starting at 200lbs, even given the context.

It is doubtful to me given the trainability of the deadlift compared to other lifts, that any mature man who untrained could only pull 200lbs could ever pull 600lbs, let alone 750lbs, no matter what training program they used.

Brandon,

I guess i just dont think its as low a possibility as you think it is. The more I think about it, more and more people come to mind who I think might have been able to accomplish it... There was a kid named Kyle Gulledge that I coached for a while who was and is the only teenager to ever DL over 800lbs, he pulled 830 at 19 years of age. I saw him pull 725 pretty easy after not deadlifting for about 3 or 4 months... i am not sure but I believe he pulled around 600 when he first started, and got into the upper 700's with less than a year of training. In fact I think he started training at 17 years of age... so he got to 830 pretty quick also. I think he is another possibility of someone who COULD HAVE gotten a 750lb pull, or very near it, with only 2 years of CF training.

Someone pulling 700lbs untrained like Gary Heisey is, obviously, very rare, very very rare, and perhaps absolutely unique. But 750 with 2 years of CF would not be AS rare as 700 untrained. In fact as I said the more I think about it the more likely I think it is to be done eventually, There is no doubt in my mind that there are guys out there with the genetics to make this happen, its just a matter of one of them giving CF a try.

In fact, IMO, the probably reason this hasnt happend, is that the guys that could do it are playing football, powerlifting, weightlifting, or something like that. You are not going to be getting many guys with the genetics to play defensive end in the NFL doing crossfit during the prime of their lives, because they are going to be playing defensive end in the NFL. And thats the kind of freaky genetics it would take. The guys are out there, I just dont know what the chances of one of them happening to pick up CF as a 22 year old untrained individual.

In any event, ive made my contribution, I sincerely hope that it was a positive one, and im going to try to stay off this thread. I dont want to end up argueing with anyone, that was definately not my goal in contributing.

glenn

Brandon Oto 11-18-2008 09:22 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Thanks again Glenn.

Sean Dunston 11-19-2008 09:26 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Man... you guys might have convinced me to go to 501# by 7/7/09. My affiliate opened on 7/7/07, so that would be 2 years of regular CF WODs.

When I found CF I was just a 36 year old, out of shape attorney, who was totally untrained on the DL, Presses and Squats. I still have not attended a barbell Cert - just a Level I and Gymnastics Cert.

If only I wasn't a lazy 38 year old guy who works for a living by sitting at a desk 10 hours per day - maybe I'd have a better chance to increase my DL.

Do ANY of you think I can do it by just maintaining my 4 on, 1 off, 1 on, 1 off schedule of WODs?

Ohh - and I have absolutely no need or desire to gain extra mass/bulk/weight. A 501# DL would be over 300% of my current body weight... but it is only 61# higher than my current 1RM.

Remember - my 1RM DL when I started was low 200s. I don't remember the exact number - I'll have to check the paper log at my gym.

If I did it, could we put this thing to bed? Or would it fall outside the confines about which we are speaking since it wouldn't be 750#?

David Schneider 11-19-2008 09:29 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Dunston (Post 450420)
Man... you guys might have convinced me to go to 501# by 7/7/09. My affiliate opened on 7/7/07, so that would be 2 years of regular CF WODs.

When I found CF I was just a 36 year old, out of shape attorney, who was totally untrained on the DL, Presses and Squats prior to CF. I still have not attended a barbell Cert - just a Level I and Gymnastics Cert.

If only I wasn't a lazy 38 year old guy who works work for a living by sitting at a desk 10 hours per day - maybe I'd have a better chance to increase my DL.

Do ANY of you think I can do it by just maintaining my 4 on, 1 off, 1 on, 1 off schedule of WODs?

Ohh - and I have absolutely no need or desire to gain extra mass/bulk/weight. A 501# DL would be over 300% of my current body weight... but it is only 61# higher than my current 1RM.

Remember - my 1RM DL when I started was low 200s. I don't remember the exact number - I'll have to check the paper log at my gym.

If I did it, could we put this thing to bed? Or would it fall outside the confines about which we are speaking since it wouldn't be 750#?

Get em' Sean :weight_l:

Justin Gross 11-19-2008 10:41 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Dunston (Post 450420)
If I did it, could we put this thing to bed?

These gnats will never quit, it's not in their makeup. When their questions get answered they find some other random number or word to obsess on.
They will always be here, just like the people posting "What's up with the politics, I thought this was an exercise site?" in the rest day comments.


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