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George Noble 11-18-2008 03:31 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

Originally Posted by David Wood (Post 449783)

As someone who weighs "only" 160, I *need* that fixation (at least in reporting my lifts) . . . I'm not going to match the lifts of my larger brethren. Call it a form of compensation for my inadequacies :)

In specifying a workout, maybe it's just a convenient training protocol to allow a widely-varying potential range of body types do the workouts?

I fully understand that most real world challenges recognize no age, weight, or gender categories . . . as someone once said: "God made all men; it took Samuel Colt to make them equal."

I'm around 170 myself. I can understand it in the context of powerlifting, but not in terms of functional strength. A 405 deadlift is more functional than a 315 deadlift, even if the guy who did 315 is 130 lbs. I'm also not saying it's bad. Weird != bad, or I'd be in Hell.

Shane Rapp 11-18-2008 03:38 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

Originally Posted by Frederic Giraud (Post 449396)
We are still talking about mass gains routine and not bodybuilding routines, if you want to be that strict . Mass gain is only 1 part of any bodybuilding routine, thus you can't say crossfit is a better bodybuilding program....but a better mass gain program.

And about what did he really means when using bodybuilding well who knows? Only him. But I'm still someone able to draw my own conclusions. And with all the taught he puts into fitness/crossfit, I think saying that he doesn't and wouldn't agree on the fact that there is different "kind" of bodybuilding routine, is an attakc to his intelligence more than anything. Come on guys stop with the non-sense... This has been debated more than enough and this is the general conclusion, that yes if we could get more precision regarding his claims, everyone would be happy, but what he said is still true, just because of the hormonal response of the exercise, period.

Sorry Frederic, but now you're just making excuses to justify the silly statements and I think you know this. The claim that it would be superior for bodybuilding is pretty obvious to see and makes little sense just as the deadlift claim does.

As far as this VO2 max vs Fran time thing, I think both are useful for testing certain aspects of fitness. Specifically regarding firefighters, when I was an undergrad in exercise physiology I helped out when our human performance lab did the annual test for the local fire department and there was a strong correlation between VO2 max and how well the firefighters did on other, more job specific tests. It wasn't the only indicator of success but VO2 max isnt supposed to be. I'd bet that having good times on some of the WODs would be good indicators as well. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. A WOD would probably be a better general test if you were only going to do one test whereas a test like VO2 max might tell you where a more specific weakness lies.

I think pretty much all of us agree that Crossfit has a lot of good stuff about it but it has strengths and weaknesses just like everything else. It's sad that supporters like Phillip who are offering constructive criticism are treated so rudely. This thread is making it obvious who drank too much koolaid. Think I'll head back over to rosstraining.

Adam Scheiner 11-18-2008 03:47 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

Originally Posted by Brandon Oto (Post 449728)
Because I love the truth more than I love you guys.

:rofl:well played

Chris Walls 11-18-2008 03:52 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

Originally Posted by Shane Rapp (Post 449811)
It's sad that supporters like Phillip who are offering constructive criticism are treated so rudely. This thread is making it obvious who drank too much koolaid. Think I'll head back over to rosstraining.

I will admit that at first I was rubbed the wrong way by Phillip (and still am on some posts) but now see where he is coming from. It felt more like he was demanding the proof before he would admit this was a valid way to train. Now it's more along the lines of "if we want to be taken seriously we need the proof" as opposed to "bah... until you have valid scientific proof I will continue farting in your general direction" :)

Glenn Pendlay 11-18-2008 03:56 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

No, this person did NOT exclusively use the WOD. Gary was active in powerlifting in the late 80's and early 90's, a time period in which Crossfit didnt exist.

My assertion was that I believe that this is one person, who, considering his talent and history, COULD HAVE achieved a 750lb (or more) deadlift using only the CF WOD, and a training time period of 2 years or less. I think there are others, maybe Mark Henry or someone like that could have also done it, but I think Gary, given his talent for this particular lift, is the most obvious example of someone who COULD HAVE achieved this strength level with training consisting of the WOD exclusively.

Your assertion was "This program will not, as claimed, ever take anybody to a 750lb deadlift. This is not the same as saying it won't take everybody there. It will do so for absolutely nobody."

I think the existence of people like Gary prove that your statement, as written, is wrong.

Now, I will admit, I do believe that if it is true that Gary could have done this, and I definately think it is true, it has a lot more to do with him and his exceptional genetics than with the effectiveness of CF. I believe that almost ANY program of strength training, no matter how bad, would have been sufficient to take Gary to a 750 plus deadlift given his DLing ability before any formal training, and his obvious overwhelming response once training began. I mean this is a guy who very well might have been able to pull a 750 after 6 months of light circut training on machines.

The only reason I posted my earlier post is to show that it is awfully hard to make absolute statements about what is possible and what is not possible when it comes to human performance.


Donald Lee 11-18-2008 04:13 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
This has been a long and painful thread, but it seems like we've gotten somewhere.

Steven Anderson 11-18-2008 04:37 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

Originally Posted by David Wood (Post 449647)
Brandon, I really can't understand you.

Personally, and speaking *only* for myself, I regret that quote by Coach about the 500-750 pound DL (although I'm reasonably confident that he doesn't regret it, it doesn't seem to be in his nature).

I think he was flush with excitement at the possibilities he was seeing as he started to see results from larger numbers of folks than he could train personally, and he overestimated the range of what was achievable.

And (my personal opinion only, and NOT speaking as an "official" representative of CrossFit) I think he guessed wrong at the degree of carryover from being able to do 250 multiple times to being able to do 500 once. There is carryover, a lot . . . but maybe less than it looked like at the time.

But I really can't understand the hatred from you and your buddies at ********.

The quoted range was 500 - 750. A non-trivial number of CrossFitters have crossed the lower threshold (as evidenced by personal testimony and/or logsitall entries (and assuming that the logsitall stuff is from "CrossFitters")). I don't believe Coach ever asserted that every trainer would do so. So how is it a "lie" (your words)?

FWIW, I'm partially there . . . I have a 415 DL at a bodyweight of 160 (2.6x BW), with NEVER deadlifting more than called for in the WOD. Will I make it to 500? Maybe . . . it looks a long way off right now, and it's not a particularly important mission for me. Would I be there today if I was 5 inches taller and 200 pounds bodyweight? My guess is I would . . . 500 pounds would be a lower fraction of BW (if I weighed that much) than I can do now.

On the "mass building" claim, again, I can honestly say (as my personal opinion only) that I wish he had not said that (and, again, I seriously doubt that Coach thinks that way).

My own experience (validated by the pictures posted above) is that the following modification would be truer: "CrossFit will do a better job of creating the body that the *vast* majority of men and women want (which is NOT what wins bodybuilding contests) than the splits and body parts routines commonly practiced and publicized in the bodybuilding 'literature'". It's certainly true for me personally . . . I'm happier with my physique (at the decrepit old age of 53) since CrossFit than I ever was when I was body(not)building.

I recognize that that is NOT what was said . . . but my experience is that it's closer to the truth, and I think it's what most people here "get" instinctively once they start training, (and what you, apparently, don't).

Brandon, I'm trying to figure out why you feel you have the self-appointed role of public scourge? I honestly don't recall establishing that category of membership . . . did I miss something? I recognize you're a follower who needs validation from your buddies elsewhere (such a *great* group of guys over there) . . . but I'm honestly getting very tired of your ****.

You're intelligent, you've got a number of great posts to your credit . . . and yet you're the kind of person who can't see the forest for the trees. I don't get it.

OMFG! FINALLY! Well said, David.

Tim Donahey 11-18-2008 04:55 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

Originally Posted by Glenn Pendlay (Post 449780)
Gary deadlifted around 700lbs the first time he ever tried to do the exercise, and this was without any extensive prior strength training of any kind.

Wow. Freakish strength!

But, essentially Gary could have been on a strict Pilates routine and gotten the same results.

Glenn Pendlay 11-18-2008 05:55 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

True, as I mentioned in my post, the fact that Gary could almost certainly have deadlifted over 750 in a short time period with only WOD training demonstrates a lot more about Gary than it does about CF.

What this does demonstrate very well, IMO, is that there is, or should be, an understood qualifier when someone makes claims like either Coach Glassmans claim that "we can take you to a 500 to 750 deadlift in 2 years" (not exact quote i dont think, but close) and Brandons assertion that there was NO ONE that could achieve 750 on the deadlift using only the WOD.

I believe that there is NO WAY that Coach Glassman ever thought that anyone and everyone could achieve a deadlift in the 500 to 750 range using CF. He is definately not a stupid guy, and IMO to think that would be stupid. I mean, there is probably 50% of the population or more (most of it females, but still, a significant number of guys) who could NEVER achieve a 500lb deadlift without drugs, and many or most of those couldnt do it even with drugs, no matter what training protocol they used. I mean if they trained for 10 years specifically for deadlifting, with no other goal whatsoever, there is a very large number of people who even in those circumstances would never be capable of a 500lb deadlift.

I tend to think that there was an understood qualifyer, not stated but obvious enough that he probably thought it didnt need to be stated, that if you were a male of average size and genetics and not too old when you started, you should be able to DL over 500lbs in 2 years by following CF. Maybe he should have said "we can take many people" or "we can take most guys", but even though he didnt say it, I think we all know thats what he has to have meant. Like I said, Coach is a smart guy, and we all know that it would not be smart to specifically say that every single person who does CF will deadlift between 500 and 750 within 2 years, and I think that no matter how the statement was written, it is lunacy to read that into it, or hold him responsible and use the "L" word over this statement.

The thing is, Brandon also made a statement, a very specific statement, that NO ONE could achieve a 750 dl using only crossfit. No one had, no one could, no one ever would, if I remember right. Now I think that had someone sat down with Brandon, and asked him if he truly believed that there was never, in the history of human habitation of the earth, a person born with the freakish genetics that would allow them to deadlift 750lbs with little or no training, or with only WOD training, im betting that he would have backed off the "absolute" nature of his statement.

I personally believe, given the genetic outliers that have been discovered only within the extremely small gene pool of people who have tried the sport of powerlifting in the past 40 or 50 years, that I would bet money, if there were any way to prove it, that humans have been born and lived on this planet who could have deadlifted 800lbs with no training whatsoever. We will never know, but I am sure it has happened.

Now, I am willing to give Brandon the benefit of the doubt on his statement. I dont think he really meant that the man had never been born nor ever would be born that could achieve this feat... and I would agree that it is possible, maybe probable but im not so sure, that we will never see someone with no prior history of strength training, and no training outside of the WOD, perform a 750lb deadlift within 2 years of starting training. I wouldnt mind being proved wrong on that though, thats for sure!

But if someone needs to give him the benefit of the doubt regarding a statement of his that is not technically true but still when read in a realistic way pretty accurately presents his opinion that, and im putting words into his mouth here so sorry... but what I take as his general opinion and a pretty realistic stance, that a 750 deadlift within 2 years of starting training using only the WOD hasnt happened, would be extremely rare if it did happen, and might never happen.... well then I think he should give Coach Glassman the benefit of the doubt also.

And Brandon Im not trying to pick on you. But I do think this is going a bit far, and I do know that I would hate to have someone like you pick apart every thing I had written or said within the last 6 years with the same intensity as you are using with Coach Glassman. I would dare say that even without ever trying to be misleading, my words, and the words of most people, would not stand up to it. No one is 100% accurate, or 100% effective in saying absolutely perfectly what they mean 100% of the time.


Kevin B. Sandberg 11-18-2008 06:21 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

On the VO2max question: the C2 site has a calculator estimating VO2max based on 2k time.

A 2k row comes up periodically in the WOD. Why don't you study the 2k postings from a variety of angles to get a sense of how VO2max is affected by the CF protocol?

I was a rower (a mediocre one) when I was younger and now at 39, training CF, 16 years after I'd stopped training for rowing, my times dropped to equal that of those when I was 23 years old and training specifically for the sport. I fully expect to drop my time further. In my estimation there is no question VO2max is effectively utilized and improved following the main site.

In addition, to that there is no question I'm also stronger and generally more capable then I've ever been in my life. Anecdotal to be sure, but when you're the anecdote, it's pretty convincing. Would I have reached it on some other permutation of GPP? I don't know. Probably not b/c I probably would not have found another program as easily and if I had I would not have been able to implement it on my own in my garage or have all the resources available online to help progress without killing myself.

As a side note: I number of years ago the men's national rowing coach, Mike Teti announced that anyone with a confirmed sub 6:00 C2 2k would be eligible to try out for the national team. Previous rowing experience was not a prereq. He did not, however, put out there "Anyone with a VO2max of such and such or better."

So, you have a fairly good VO2max estimate available that can easily be determined from a common benchmark piece. You can research it without a grant. The only cost is your time and your computer. You can call it "Estimated VO2max changes over time and across varying populations in a popular GPP program."

Good luck. Let me know how it works out.

PS You don't need to acknowledge that it was my idea. :)

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