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-   -   T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit (http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=38880)

John Filippini 11-17-2008 08:12 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
David, I like the set up. It would be pretty sweet if something like that could ever be set up. Likely, components of it would have to be broken down piecemeal, but it would still be neat. Any piece of that study would be very powerful in actually backing up the "empirical" nature of CrossFit.

Funding is of course a major issue, for reasons Mike mentioned as well as a host of others. I think it's silly to think that Coach has nothing to gain from studies like this though. While it is clear that good coaching does have to forge ahead of the science, the usefulness of the science in expanding and furthering a growing movement should not be ignored.

Jonathon Brown 11-17-2008 08:44 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
One thing to consider, which people have been trying to get, is context for CrossFit.

For what CrossFit is meant to do, it does exceptionally well.

For what CrossFit is not meant to do, it doesn't do that well.

It's similar to the domain of validity diagram for physics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_mechanics (link wfs)

Classical Mechanics, General Relativity and the other two work exceptionally well for their domain. Are they perfect for their domain? Not exactly. Each has areas where it's lacking. It is better than everything else though.

And there arbitrary definitions within those as well (density of pure water being 1, for example). Doesn't make the theory any less valid.

I hope this helps in discussing the validity and domain of CrossFit.

George Noble 11-18-2008 06:44 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonathon Brown (Post 449021)
One thing to consider, which people have been trying to get, is context for CrossFit.

For what CrossFit is meant to do, it does exceptionally well.

For what CrossFit is not meant to do, it doesn't do that well.

But what is CrossFit meant to do? If we are to believe what Greg Glassman says, it's
a. the best routine for bodybuilders to do;
b. a world class powerlifting routine, better at developing limit strength than SS, Westside, Sheyko, Smolov or anything else out there that doesn't claim to take a 200 deadlift to 750 in 2 years;
c. the best routine for health and general fitness;
d. probably a few more things if I cared to look.

So perhaps a better question is, what exactly is CrossFit not meant to do?

Frederic Giraud 11-18-2008 07:56 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
WoW George where are you getting your facts from?

I can only agree with c.

There's a difference between stating that it is the best routine for bodybuilders and stating that it is better than non-compound bodybuilding routine... I mean come on don't take it to the extremes like that....render the debate quite meaningless....

Sean Dunston 11-18-2008 07:59 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon Oto (Post 448727)
If you hit 750, I will study you myself.



Aside from the Canadian study, there don't seem to be. To quote the Journal itself,

"CrossFit trainers and athletes can certainly observe and measure the response to CrossFit training, but there are few other similarly intense training protocols that we can compare results with. Without this comparison it is difficult to scientifically validate CrossFit methodology. The Canadian military has done that, comparing CrossFit methods with conventional physical training methods (CrossFit Journal issue 41), but more such studies are needed." (http://library.crossfit.com/free/pdf...atDoWeKnow.pdf wfs)

The author later goes on to voice the opinion that such studies may be impossible.

If you get a minute, please provide some of the articles you mentioned. These things have a habit of being more existent in the memory than in reality.

Brandon-
Absolutely no chance of me hitting 750 - that is nearly 5X my bodyweight (have you seen many 100# people pulling 500#, or 250# people pulling 1,250#?), plus I have ZERO interest in getting there.

The article you've cited is the one that immediately came to mind. I thought there were more, but I have zero interest in wasting my time finding them.

I'll let our resident expert researchers look for them.

Brandon Oto 11-18-2008 08:15 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Frederic Giraud (Post 449267)
WoW George where are you getting your facts from?

I can only agree with c.

There's a difference between stating that it is the best routine for bodybuilders and stating that it is better than non-compound bodybuilding routine... I mean come on don't take it to the extremes like that....render the debate quite meaningless....

Extremes? Those are all based on DIRECT quotes from Glassman.

I mean, I agree they're extremes, but that's part of what we're trying to talk about here -- claims about the program versus its actual function.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Dunston (Post 449270)
The article you've cited is the one that immediately came to mind. I thought there were more, but I have zero interest in wasting my time finding them.

I'll let our resident expert researchers look for them.

Yeah... well... unfortunately this is usually the case, rather than "It has been backed up - there have been publications of its efficacy... each time such things are posted, people turn up their nose them." So it'd be nice if people would stop making vague allusions to ironclad evidence that's just barely out of sight.

Frederic Giraud 11-18-2008 09:00 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Come on Brandon you know better than that...

A lot can be said thanks to out of context quotes.

So going back to George's post:

-Best bodybuilding routine? Wrong. Crossfit wont make you win a bodybuilding contest, it will help you put on more mass than bad no-compound exercise routine. That's all that the quote says. Now if you guys want to conclude that it is a better bodybuilding routine than you might want to check back your bodybuilding definition.

Quote:

b. a world class powerlifting routine, better at developing limit strength than SS, Westside, Sheyko, Smolov or anything else out there that doesn't claim to take a 200 deadlift to 750 in 2 years;
I guess this is why Coach ask the expertise of people like M.Rippetoe and Coach Burgener, just to laugh at them and make them realise how his regimen is much much better? Come on guys,
Quote:

[...]Our program delivers a fitness that is, by design, broad, general, and inclusive. Our specialty is not specializing. [...]
How can you associate such a specialisation to crossfit when it clearly says the exact opposite. You will get stronger with crossfit. One thing we could say is that, if a program like Starting Strentgh has the possibility of taking your strentgh to the max level ( 100% , which is wrong since it's a beginner program but let's just assume it's right for the purpose of my example please) then crossfit would have the possibility of taking your strentgh level to 80% of the max strentgh you could ever had.

Now this conversation is just going in circles you guys are being/having bad faith. ( French expression I can't seem to translate correctly sorry)

Gavin Harrison 11-18-2008 09:39 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
If westside barbell club has only a dozen or so deadlifters over 800, what makes anyone thinks CF will generate many 750 DLs.. I've also never heard this claim.. I've heard maybe 400-500, but I think I'd remember 750..

David Stout 11-18-2008 09:48 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Frederic Giraud (Post 449313)
Come on Brandon you know better than that...

A lot can be said thanks to out of context quotes.

So going back to George's post:

-Best bodybuilding routine? Wrong. Crossfit wont make you win a bodybuilding contest, it will help you put on more mass than bad no-compound exercise routine. That's all that the quote says. Now if you guys want to conclude that it is a better bodybuilding routine than you might want to check back your bodybuilding definition.



I guess this is why Coach ask the expertise of people like M.Rippetoe and Coach Burgener, just to laugh at them and make them realise how his regimen is much much better? Come on guys,


How can you associate such a specialisation to crossfit when it clearly says the exact opposite. You will get stronger with crossfit. One thing we could say is that, if a program like Starting Strentgh has the possibility of taking your strentgh to the max level ( 100% , which is wrong since it's a beginner program but let's just assume it's right for the purpose of my example please) then crossfit would have the possibility of taking your strentgh level to 80% of the max strentgh you could ever had.

Now this conversation is just going in circles you guys are being/having bad faith. ( French expression I can't seem to translate correctly sorry)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin Harrison (Post 449342)
If westside barbell club has only a dozen or so deadlifters over 800, what makes anyone thinks CF will generate many 750 DLs.. I've also never heard this claim.. I've heard maybe 400-500, but I think I'd remember 750..

Gavin - Here's the interview being referenced in the DL side discussion (WFS):

http://www.powerathletesmag.com/arch...ewglassman.htm

Frederic - Here's the quote of the entire paragraph so you can decide if it's being taken out of context:

Quote:

But here's the fascinating part. We can take you from a 200 pound max deadlift to a 500-750 pound max deadlift in two years while only pulling max singles four or five times a year. We will though work the deadlift, like most lifts, approximately once per week at higher reps and under grueling conditions. It may intuit well that if you can pull a 250 pound deadlift 21 times coming to the lift at a heart rate of 180 beats per minute, then 500 pounds for a single at a resting heart rate is perhaps manageable.

Benjamin Smith 11-18-2008 10:00 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Frederic Giraud (Post 449313)
Come on Brandon you know better than that...

A lot can be said thanks to out of context quotes.

So going back to George's post:

-Best bodybuilding routine? Wrong. Crossfit wont make you win a bodybuilding contest, it will help you put on more mass than bad no-compound exercise routine. That's all that the quote says. Now if you guys want to conclude that it is a better bodybuilding routine than you might want to check back your bodybuilding definition.



I guess this is why Coach ask the expertise of people like M.Rippetoe and Coach Burgener, just to laugh at them and make them realise how his regimen is much much better? Come on guys,


How can you associate such a specialisation to crossfit when it clearly says the exact opposite. You will get stronger with crossfit. One thing we could say is that, if a program like Starting Strentgh has the possibility of taking your strentgh to the max level ( 100% , which is wrong since it's a beginner program but let's just assume it's right for the purpose of my example please) then crossfit would have the possibility of taking your strentgh level to 80% of the max strentgh you could ever had.

Now this conversation is just going in circles you guys are being/having bad faith. ( French expression I can't seem to translate correctly sorry)


Frederick, here's the bodybuilding quote from the main page FAQ, "according to Coach". You can read it again and decide if the context that you ascribe to it is actually there.

"If you train the WODs hard, and eat right and get lots of sleep, you will definitely gain lean mass, lose fat, and yes, you can build muscle mass with the crossfit protocol. More specifically, according to Coach,
Here is a hierarchy of training for mass from greater to lesser efficacy:
1. Bodybuilding on steroids
2. CrossFitting on steroids
3. CrossFitting without steroids
4. Bodybuilding without steroids
The bodybuilding model is designed around, requires, steroids for significant hypertrophy.
The neuroendocrine response of bodybuilding protocols is so blunted that without "exogenous hormonal therapy" little happens.
The CrossFit protocol is designed to elicit a substantial neuroendocrine whollop and hence packs an anabolic punch that puts on impressive amounts of muscle though that is not our concern. Strength is.
Natural bodybuilders (the natural ones that are not on steroids) never approach the mass that our ahtletes do. They don't come close.
Those athletes who train for function end up with better form than those who value form over function. This is one of the beautiful ironies of training."


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