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-   -   T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit (http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=38880)

Nick Cummings 11-17-2008 12:14 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq (Post 448572)
There is nothing mean or ****y about my response. I simply stated that VO2 is a predictor of success based on research I've helped conduct. I'm asking you from what basis you're making your opinion, is based off being a firefighter, training them, or hypothesis based on your opinion of thwt you think firefighters need fitness wise.

I am curious how old you are. You have stated that you have done research, trained as a firefighter, studied how firefighters train, trained as a weightlifter, and trained as a strongman. You seem to have a lot of experience that I would think would lead you to be able to be a lot more open minded and less agressive in discussing things that your statements imply you have little mastery in.

Phillip Garrison 11-17-2008 12:16 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Anderson (Post 447986)
...you've "studied" firefighting...and what training? I AM a firefighter. I haven't just studied it and trained it, but I live it, every third day. Aside from the fact of pulling hose, carrying an ax and hauling other equipment; wearing gear and breathing through an SCBA mask and the whole adrenaline "spike" that comes with fighting an actual fire is a whole different ball game than wearing spandex and an aerodynamic helmet and riding a ****ing bicycle. I don't give a **** what your VO2 max is? I work alongside firefighters that go into burning buildings with a wad of ****ing dip in their mouths and come out and smoke a cigarette. I guarantee you they would blow the pants of most tour de france riders.

I have read some really great posts here, especially from the greats: Coach, Rob Wolfe, etc. Your knowledge and explanation of EVERYTHING that we've been discussing here is tremendously insightful and refreshing, and frankly is still making me wonder why some just aren't getting it.

But, I would have to say, I'd like to hear from some of the other greats. YOU KNOW, the elites that actaully DO the ****ing program and can give an educated response on what CF has done for them and their fitness level and its carryover to everyday life activites and specialized sports. Speal, Jason K, OPT, those guys. It still baffles me how Poliquin, Boyle, etc. can criticize a program they have never tried, and I mean TRIED. How can anybody bash something they have never even attempted for a REASONABLE amount of time? Kinda like Sean ****ing Penn and every other hollywood actor with an opinion on the conflict in the Middle East. Really? Maybe Poliquin should do CF for a year and TRULY find out what the hell CF is really all about. Maybe Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon should join the Army for a year and TRULY find out what the hell war is really all about. Get my drift?

The argument that CF prepares you for everyday life activities shouldn't really be an arguement at all...again if one has put any REAL time into the program. I think under Anthony Bainbridge's profile it says something in effect of "If you don't get nervous before you train, then you're not training hard enough." I find this to be true. CF builds tremendous mental toughness, more so than any other program I've ever been associated with.

All this talk with testing this and that in the lab...yea, whatever. Here's a solution, test yourselves. Pick a goal. Do the program for x amout of time. Do another program for x amout of time. Compare the results. Which one brought you to your goal faster? Which one made you faster, bigger, stronger, better VO2 max, highter VJ, look better naked, etc. etc. etc.? Only each of us truly knows what works for us. With that being said, maybe we ALL should read this: http://rosstraining.com/blog/2008/11...80%99ll-do-me/ (w/f/s)


I've been a research assistant on some of my colleagues research. A good friend of mine did his doctoral dissertation on the metabolic and physical demands placed on firefighters during a firefight. They routinely exceed HR's above 180bpm during the time they are in the fire, and rely heavily upon the Aerobic system while inside a fire. In fact the demands placed on the body in many ways mimmick a 5-10k run and thus the needs of endurance athletes. It is based off that data that researchers have determined that an above avaerage VO2 is one of the predictors of success as a firefighter, or recruit.

If you're interested in some of the research look up Dodd et al, Rhea et al, and Peterson et al.

Phillip Garrison 11-17-2008 12:22 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Cummings (Post 448577)
I am curious how old you are. You have stated that you have done research, trained as a firefighter, studied how firefighters train, trained as a weightlifter, and trained as a strongman. You seem to have a lot of experience that I would think would lead you to be able to be a lot more open minded and less agressive in discussing things that your statements imply you have little mastery in.

I've never trained as a firefighter sorry if anyone got that assumption. I've done research on firefighters and their training needs and metabolic demands while actually fighting a fire. I'm 30 years I've been an athlete most of my life and researcher for a few years. I'm very openminded and am a very ardent supporter of CF, but as a scientist I desire for us to not make claims based on conjecture or logical conclusions but based on cold hard data. If we want to claim our system is better than anyone else's we need to back that up with more than increasingly fast "Fran" times. What about my statements imply I have little mastery of things I've talked about? I've never claimed to be an expert in anything.

Daniel Schmieding 11-17-2008 12:38 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Yes, it would still be CrossFit if you incorporated functional moves from Yoga.

CrossFit's main page WOD is quite different, often times, than it was 7 or 8 years ago. Despite a greater reliance on max-effort (ME) days on the main page now, it was still CrossFit back then.

If the main page decided to post ME days every other day it would still be CrossFit.

--

VO2 max doesn't mean much, even to a marathoner, if he/she rolls an ankle getting the water bottles into the car without a properly performed/practiced/integrated deadlift before the race.

Tim Donahey 11-17-2008 12:44 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Schmieding (Post 448599)
Yes, it would still be CrossFit if you incorporated functional moves from Yoga.

CrossFit's main page WOD is quite different, often times, than it was 7 or 8 years ago. Despite a greater reliance on max-effort (ME) days on the main page now, it was still CrossFit back then.

If the main page decided to post ME days every other day it would still be CrossFit.

Well I hope GG doesn't get sued for stealing Coach's "intellectual property," lol.

Phillip Garrison 11-17-2008 12:56 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Schmieding (Post 448599)
Yes, it would still be CrossFit if you incorporated functional moves from Yoga.

CrossFit's main page WOD is quite different, often times, than it was 7 or 8 years ago. Despite a greater reliance on max-effort (ME) days on the main page now, it was still CrossFit back then.

If the main page decided to post ME days every other day it would still be CrossFit.

--

VO2 max doesn't mean much, even to a marathoner, if he/she rolls an ankle getting the water bottles into the car without a properly performed/practiced/integrated deadlift before the race.


Ahh yes, the pre race deadlift, the secret of all "real" marathoners

Chris Walls 11-17-2008 12:59 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
So you missed the part where the actual fire fighter said VO2 max was a useless metric for judging whether or not someone is fit to be a fire fighter, or where the CrossFitters winning fire fighter challenges, consuming less O2 from their O2 tanks (therefore a LOWER VO2 max) are less fit be fire fighters then the guys losing to them while sucking more air...

Phillip Garrison 11-17-2008 01:04 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Walls (Post 448620)
So you missed the part where the actual fire fighter said VO2 max was a useless metric for judging whether or not someone is fit to be a fire fighter, or where the CrossFitters winning fire fighter challenges, consuming less O2 from their O2 tanks (therefore a LOWER VO2 max) are less fit be fire fighters then the guys losing to them while sucking more air...

The research would suggest otherwise. It's not my research if you disagree talk to the authors of the studies.

Chris Walls 11-17-2008 01:06 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
That is exactly what everyone here is trying to tell you, the research is wrong. If it's not yours why are you fighting so hard to defend it? Why is it all you post is just a quick "nope you're wrong. I am a scientist. Prove it."

And not only is the research wrong, but these "measures" of fitness that you demand we test, we argue are not valid measures. VO2 max doesn't mean anything as far as CrossFit's definition of fitness is concerned.

Phillip Garrison 11-17-2008 01:13 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Walls (Post 448629)
That is exactly what everyone here is trying to tell you, the research is wrong. If it's not yours why are you fighting so hard to defend it? Why is it all you post is just a quick "nope you're wrong. I am a scientist. Prove it."

I've never said nope you're wrong. I've simply stated that we need to make our claims based off hard data not speculation. How do you know the research is wrong? I don't care one way or the other about whether or not you believe in the research, but if you're going to state something is wrong you need a better argument than "becuase so and so said it's wrong". If that is the basis of a good argument, we still wouldn't be lifting weights because early "experts" claimed it made you slow, was bad for your heart, and made you stupid.

Crossfit believes in fitness across several domains including aerobic fitness, anaerobic, muscular power, muscular strength. If determining VO2 isn't a good metric of aerboci fitness, what would you suggest is a good metric?


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