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-   -   Final games thoughts (http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=69139)

Stu Christensen 09-14-2011 11:27 AM

Re: Final games thoughts
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Carlson (Post 985279)
I guess I do ;) Having not used anything beyond whey and creatine, I don't know enough about the 'heavier' PEDs :D

I agree with Andrew, if you don't know, you shouldn't be in the discussion. IMO.

I have held off posting for a few days trying to see what everyone's thoughts are. There are a lot of people in here saying its cheating, and that's true according to the rules set forth. However, if people think that sports are clean because the rules say so and doing it is cheating, then please understand that most likely +90% of your favorite athletes are cheaters. Seriously. I have friends in professional sports and can say first hand that almost all "cheat".

Also, steroids HAVE been around for 50+ years... heck, dbol was taken like smarties in the 60's and 70's. lol

Adam Carlson 09-14-2011 05:04 PM

Re: Final games thoughts
 
Point taken. I don't know the details as clearly as many on this thread, but I am doing what I can to learn about them. Not for using them myself, but for actually being able to make sense of what is true out there.

Michael Kelley 09-14-2011 08:30 PM

Re: Final games thoughts
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Christensen (Post 985405)
I agree with Andrew, if you don't know, you shouldn't be in the discussion. IMO.

I have held off posting for a few days trying to see what everyone's thoughts are. There are a lot of people in here saying its cheating, and that's true according to the rules set forth. However, if people think that sports are clean because the rules say so and doing it is cheating, then please understand that most likely +90% of your favorite athletes are cheaters. Seriously. I have friends in professional sports and can say first hand that almost all "cheat".

Also, steroids HAVE been around for 50+ years... heck, dbol was taken like smarties in the 60's and 70's. lol

I don't know about percentages, but I know a lot of them are cheating. The only solution is the nuclear bomb of sanctions - the lifetime ban. One positive test at any level of competition becomes a lifetime ban at all levels. That sets up the opposite incentive to the one that exists today - that is, do whatever you can to be uber-clean. No accidents with cough syrum (insert eye roll here), no "I didn't know what that cream was." None of that nonsense. Stay clean or step aside for someone who is.

Adam Carlson 09-14-2011 10:14 PM

Re: Final games thoughts
 
which will then set up a whole slew of new versions of Tanya Hardings - lace opponent's foods with things that will trip tests, and boom, competition out of the way.

Ryan Hoegner 09-15-2011 08:28 AM

Re: Final games thoughts
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Kelley (Post 985602)
I don't know about percentages, but I know a lot of them are cheating. The only solution is the nuclear bomb of sanctions - the lifetime ban. One positive test at any level of competition becomes a lifetime ban at all levels. That sets up the opposite incentive to the one that exists today - that is, do whatever you can to be uber-clean. No accidents with cough syrum (insert eye roll here), no "I didn't know what that cream was." None of that nonsense. Stay clean or step aside for someone who is.

The banned substance list would have to be very clear at that point. A couple
members of the CFNE affiliate team tested "positive" a couple years ago for something found in jacked energy drink.

Katherine Derbyshire 09-15-2011 08:54 AM

Re: Final games thoughts
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Kelley (Post 985602)
I don't know about percentages, but I know a lot of them are cheating. The only solution is the nuclear bomb of sanctions - the lifetime ban. One positive test at any level of competition becomes a lifetime ban at all levels. That sets up the opposite incentive to the one that exists today - that is, do whatever you can to be uber-clean. No accidents with cough syrum (insert eye roll here), no "I didn't know what that cream was." None of that nonsense. Stay clean or step aside for someone who is.

Or for someone who's national federation is more corrupt?

As it stands now, there are vast differences in enforcement, even within sports that nominally have uniform rules. Even assuming there were some sort of international consensus -- which there isn't -- the testing regime you describe would require an enormous budget that simply isn't going to happen.

Katherine

Stu Christensen 09-15-2011 10:04 AM

Re: Final games thoughts
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Kelley (Post 985602)
I don't know about percentages, but I know a lot of them are cheating. The only solution is the nuclear bomb of sanctions - the lifetime ban. One positive test at any level of competition becomes a lifetime ban at all levels. That sets up the opposite incentive to the one that exists today - that is, do whatever you can to be uber-clean. No accidents with cough syrum (insert eye roll here), no "I didn't know what that cream was." None of that nonsense. Stay clean or step aside for someone who is.

You're still assuming that what they're taking can be tested for, which is NOT the case all the time. Remember, you can't test positive for what the testing body doesn't know exists.

Also, like I mentioned before...pay attention to athlete interviews and such when discussing PED's. Notice that athletes will 99% of the time say "I've never tested positive for PED's" and NOT "I've never taken PED's". This is very critical in remembering and there is a very definitive reason they choose the words they do. Believe me.

I'm not condoning the use of PED's in sport. I used PED's a LONG time ago, and believe me it helps...a lot. lol But still, those who think ANY sport with money, recognition, or fame on the line is clean, no matter NFL, NHL, MLB, NLL, MLS, Olympics, etc, is NOT. The degree in which that sport is not clean is just a marker on the level to which people receive the recognition (via fame, money etc).

Joe Public has no idea, and that's fine, but those that believe sports are clean, have been in the dark for nearly 50 years.

Sean Dunston 09-15-2011 11:55 AM

Re: Final games thoughts
 
I do not want to detract from the discussion, but I think y'all may find the following amusing:

I just got back from a trip where I got the opportunity to hang out with my mom for a few days. I've not seen her in over a year, and one night she asked my wife, behind my back, if I was on steroids. My mother knew little about my training and nutrition prior to her asking the question, but we were able to discus it in detail over the next few days.

I had to laugh a little bit... but even at 40 years old, just by focusing on the big lifts in my programming, and eating more daily, I have put on about 15#, and very little of it is fat. Apparently it was enough that my own mother is questioning if I am on something.

carry on...

Michael Kelley 09-18-2011 07:43 AM

Re: Final games thoughts
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire (Post 985714)
Or for someone who's national federation is more corrupt?

As it stands now, there are vast differences in enforcement, even within sports that nominally have uniform rules. Even assuming there were some sort of international consensus -- which there isn't -- the testing regime you describe would require an enormous budget that simply isn't going to happen.

Katherine

No doubt, but it is do-able in major sports. They do it in cycling with worldwide in and out of season testing. That said, even that organization needs to do better about testing the testers. Floyd Landis ultimately admitted to cheating, but it was pretty clear that the lab who handled his samples screwed up nearly every single step in handling his samples. They have to do better. How to fund it? It would have to come out of the bottom line of the major sport involved. For CF, it would simply have to start with broad spectrum testing at the games. That wouldn't stop cheating in October to build the base for next year, but it would be a start. Reebok can afford it.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Christensen (Post 985742)
You're still assuming that what they're taking can be tested for, which is NOT the case all the time. Remember, you can't test positive for what the testing body doesn't know exists.

Also, like I mentioned before...pay attention to athlete interviews and such when discussing PED's. Notice that athletes will 99% of the time say "I've never tested positive for PED's" and NOT "I've never taken PED's". This is very critical in remembering and there is a very definitive reason they choose the words they do. Believe me.

No doubt, that's a challenge. All you can do is test for what you know about.

David Baxter 09-18-2011 09:46 PM

Re: Final games thoughts
 
the real question is - do Reebok/ CFHQ WANT to dope test the top athletes - atm they ( the athletes) look great and perform awesomely - taking away the PED's would decrease both their performance and aesthetics - would it be prudent for the top ppl this year to have a pos PED test ( if they are using) and have to hand back the winner cheque - plus the back lash that the other fitness industry naySayers would have with that type of publicity would be incredible ----- just my 2c :)


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