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-   -   T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit (http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=38880)

William Henniger 11-20-2008 02:36 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Justin,

They are cherry flavored, do you want a sample?

David Stout 11-20-2008 02:41 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon Oto (Post 451718)
In the terminology you guys like, you can't really say you've improved across all time and modal domains if the only time and modal domain you're testing are CrossFit workouts.

But the CrossFit WODs vary themselves across broad time and modal domains.

Pat McElhone 11-20-2008 03:38 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon Oto (Post 451744)
Thanks Pat. I'll contact him and try and get that data.

What about the material you mentioned on the Colorado State Police and Force Recon?

Check the following CFJ articles:
Mar 2003, Police Training, Jacksonville Police, not Colorado State Police
Jan 2006, Validity of CrossFit tested. Everyone who wants science to prove the validity of CF, read this. This is not the best study from a study design standpoint.
It was Marine Sniper School, not Force Recon. Again, CF Radio 5 Oct 08, audio interview. Marine Sniper School Instructor implemented CF based training and compared this groups physical fitness test scores to previous standard PT scores.

Brandon Oto 11-20-2008 04:24 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Thanks Pat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Stout (Post 451748)
But the CrossFit WODs vary themselves across broad time and modal domains.

Yes. Across a certain range. The question is how much it influences adaptations outside of that range.

Again, nobody questions whether you improve at the exact things you're doing in your training. That's basically a training tautology; unquestionably true and also meaningless. Athletes interested in GPP (that is, anyone who's not doing CF as its own sport) don't want to improve their Helen for its own sake. They want to use Helen to improve their gravel shoveling.

John C. Brown 11-20-2008 04:38 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Brandon,

One quick note. In the Theoretical Hierarchy of the Development of an Athlete, a diagram that CF uses at the majority of their Certs, the top of the pyramid is sport. Several times I have heard Greg say "go play a sport" because sport is the height of athletic achievement in his eyes (I presume, I won't speak for him). I think what he wants is for people to do CF and then play something and get back to him with the results.

I know that there are several athletes on the pro and amateur level that have been using CF and have basically laid their performance at CF's feet. I know that this doesn't fall under the category of anything other than anecdotal, and perhaps they would have seen some results otherwise, but their word is really all that we have to go on.

I know for me, it has helped with whatever intramural or community driven sports that I have time to play. I ran a triathlon (a sprint) and took first in my age group with no specific training other than riding a bike 2-3 times to see if I could. It has been amazing on the soccer and football fields as well. I have never been faster and have developed an amazing dexterity with my left foot that I hadn't had before. I have done nothing to train my left foot, so I assume that it is systemic adaptation, but still it is my perceived reality. I am sure that there are others out there that exist as well that don't have the time to waste on chat boards because the NFL season doesn't allow time for it...

Brandon Oto 11-20-2008 04:58 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
John,

That's certainly the type of thing that I mean. But I'm sure you see the problem -- while that's the kind of data that we would NEED in order to say that "CrossFit works for GPP," it's also the kind that we don't HAVE. The only large-scale data we have are "internal" to CF, not external. This is a little like going through Starting Strength; you know that you've added 80 pounds to the weight you're working with on your 3x5 squats, but how much has your 1RM improved? Well... you don't know. You'd have to test it, and the test is something that's external to the program, so it doesn't happen on its own (like the 3x5 does). You can guess. But to know, you have to go and test it, period.

On the flip side, improvements like "I play better soccer" are obviously pretty hard to quantify in the same way as 30 seconds off your Diane time. This is the sense in which external, quantifiable data such as VO2max or whatever would be valuable. They're not in themselves "better soccer," but they are indicators of it, and they are measurable, so if we can say "CF gave me xyz increases in VO2max and this other stuff," then in a pretty solid way we can say that it made you a better soccer player -- or at least in a much more solid way than we can say that 30 seconds off your Diane time made you a better soccer player, since that's not a proven relationship.

One other possibility that comes to mind is establishing a set of physical tests that we recognize as requiring, and being indicative of, high level of physical fitness in various respects, and which are quantifiable like a WoD, yet do not include elements that CrossFit trains directly. For example, the gravel-shoveling example. If you never actually shovel gravel in your WoDs -- and in the current program you're not -- then if you go and do a standard gravel-shoveling test every six months, you could examine the results and consider that evidence of broad GPP improvements due to your training. You didn't train gravel shoveling, yet it improved. If you had a decent-sized suite of such tests (and some of us do have some that we already use, such as periodically checking our vertical leap or running an obstacle course), and you make sure NOT to specifically practice for them as part of the program you're testing, then this might be a valid way of getting data on GPP gains without running into specificity complaints. The only arguments would be how broadly applicable the tests themselves were -- for instance, should you care about your gravel shoveling? -- but there are probably enough possibilities to satisfy anyone.

Derek Maffett 11-20-2008 04:59 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon Oto (Post 451820)
Thanks Pat.



Yes. Across a certain range. The question is how much it influences adaptations outside of that range.

Across a certain range? What range is missing that you would like added in?

Again, nobody questions whether you improve at the exact things you're doing in your training. That's basically a training tautology; unquestionably true and also meaningless. Athletes interested in GPP (that is, anyone who's not doing CF as its own sport) don't want to improve their Helen for its own sake. They want to use Helen to improve their gravel shoveling.

No duh. Of course a GPP program is meant to improve general skills, but what you seem to be missing is that people who get better at the CF WOD's get better at everything else too. Perhaps we should add in weekly gravel shoveling and tightrope walking? I'm pretty sure your own ATG program doesn't.

People aren't just getting better at the WOD's. The reports on improvement on everything, not only the WOD's, are countless.

Derek Maffett 11-20-2008 05:05 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon Oto (Post 451846)
John,

That's certainly the type of thing that I mean. But I'm sure you see the problem -- while that's the kind of data that we would NEED in order to say that "CrossFit works for GPP," it's also the kind that we don't HAVE. The only large-scale data we have are "internal" to CF, not external.

Then you obviously have not been paying any attention whatsoever to reports on these very boards.

Joe Cavazos 11-20-2008 05:23 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon Oto (Post 451846)
One other possibility that comes to mind is establishing a set of physical tests that we recognize as requiring, and being indicative of, high level of physical fitness in various respects, and which are quantifiable like a WoD, yet do not include elements that CrossFit trains directly. For example, the gravel-shoveling example. If you never actually shovel gravel in your WoDs -- and in the current program you're not -- then if you go and do a standard gravel-shoveling test every six months, you could examine the results and consider that evidence of broad GPP improvements due to your training.

"CF made me better at shoveling gravel."
"Well shoveling gravel is a lot like Deadlifting, so you trained that movement in CF, so that doesn't count."

"CF made me a faster soccer player."
"Well that's because of the running involved in CF workouts. You trained that movement, so it doesn't count."

"CF gave me a higher vertical jump."
"Well that's because of the Box Jumps and Olympic Lifts involved in CF workouts. You trained that movement, so it doesn't count."

"After CF, now I can lift my kid over my head."
"Too similar to Shoulder Presses."

And so on.

If you wanted to compile a short-enough-to-be-feasibly-testable list of movements that when weighted by relevance (meaning you can't have things like horseshoe-throwing and pencil-spinning make up 50% of the score) would mark a level of GPP, $10 says it would look a lot like what we do in CrossFit.

Robert D Taylor Jr 11-20-2008 05:30 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Brandon,
Why isn't "I've been CFing for 6 months and my MMA endurance/strength, soccer stamina, rugby play...etc is better," like you see on the boards all the time, less valid than "Subject's VO2 Max has increased 15% due to CF" Especially since that is a direct correlation while higher VO2 doesn't neccesarily mean I'm better at soccer etc. I really don't understand.


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