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-   -   Using the ME black box and CF for mass gains (https://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=3421)

Mark Garcia 06-24-2006 07:30 PM

Just wondered if anyone has used this to gain a significant amount of muscle mass.. care to share stories and experiences?

Guest 06-24-2006 07:35 PM

there seems to be a common theme among CFers who've gained a lot of muscle, and that's some kind of combo of CF and 5 x 5 or 6 x 6 work. check out issue 17 of the Performance Menu for a whole nutrition and training template for mass gain. Free download:

[url=http://www.performancemenu.com/freeissue/index.php?show=download&issueNum=17]http://www.performancemenu.com/freeissue/index.php?show=download&issueNum=17[/url]

Mark Garcia 06-24-2006 07:50 PM

Thanks Greg I downloaded it recently and wanted to hear some stories :-) Hoping to get help from you guys since we're already implementing this in our gym :-)

Guest 06-24-2006 08:02 PM

help? sure. what kind of help?

i can say this: the training template is based on what i'm doing myself to get my weight past my former heaviest of 91kg to 94kg after being at about 77 for a couple years. i'm using a combo of all the nutrition plans laid out. about 5 weeks in i'm up 5kg and very near all my old PRs prior to the knee injury that's kept me not squatting etc. and light.

Nick Cummings 06-25-2006 11:33 AM

Greg, I have a few questions about that article if you don't mind.

In the hypertrophy unloading cycle on testing day are you supposed to find a 1 rep max in clean, front squat, weighted pull-up, weighted rope climb, and push-press? These seem to be the maxs you would need to do the next part of the program.

How many weight chins would you suggest I sub for each weighted rope climb? 10?

Could you describe the clean pull/RDL and the snatch pull/RDL? And are the percents correct for these exercises, 110% of your max lift for 3 reps sounds hard.

With Ida's approach it recommends carb loading every 3-5 days, can you describe carb loading?

The hypertrophy microcycle seems like it is low on volume. Is that what you have found effective? I'm looking at it wondering why there isn't a second squat day. I know I don't have the experience you have and am trying to understand, not criticize.

Thanks, Nick.


Guest 06-25-2006 01:28 PM

Nick -

For the pre-strength cycle testing day, you'd need to test 1RM clean, 1RM snatch, 1RM weighted pull-up, and 1RM standing press (not push press).

The chin - rope climb transfer is a tough one - they're such different movements. If you're unable to do rope climbs, I'd suggest doing another day of weighted chins - but do 8 x 3 at 65-75% or so.

The pull percentages are correct - you should be able to lift/high-pull more than you can actually clean or snatch. This is basically a deadlift with either a snatch or clean grip, but with the RDL movement (i.e. pushing the knees forward like you would in a double knee bend during the o-lifts) and a shrug/high pull. Here's a video (but you don't need to do it elevated):
[url=http://www.mikesgym.org/gallery/video/sagepullblks.mov]http://www.mikesgym.org/gallery/video/sagepullblks.mov[/url]

Hypertrophy cycle is definitely low on volume, and very intentionally. This is to allow as much recovery as possible (read: growth) from the stimulus. There are basically 2 approaches to hypertrophy: a bodybuilding one and a good one. The bodybuilding model tends to be super high volume with lightish loading. This encourages more hypertrophy through energy substrate storage and satellite cell growth, whereas the 6 x 6 type approach will stimulate more actual contractile protein growth (i.e. more actin/myosin). Go into any gym and pick out a bodybuilder and a weightlifter of the same size; I'm sure I don't need to tell you which is stronger and more capable.

As far as the carb load goes, it's pretty simple. Every 3 to 5 days, return your protein intake to what you'd consider "normal", and eat 300-500 grams of carbs (about 30-55 blocks in Zone terms). This is just a chance to top off glycogen stores and encourage better protein use.

Let me know if I missed anything!

Neal Winkler 06-25-2006 03:32 PM

Greg,

How would you go about gaining mass while keeping a decent level of endurance for wrestling, while simultaneously increasing absolute strength (lol... a lot to ask I know...)? Lately I've been doing a 1:1 of metcon to strength days in order to improve absolute strength but keep a good level of endurance. I wouldn't mind putting on some size either, I've been trying for the past 8 years or so after all (and I'm still 145lbs.). Do you think a 1:1:1 of strength:metcon:hypertrophy would work?

Nick Cummings 06-25-2006 03:37 PM

Wow, thanks for all the info. So the snatch/RDL is a Snatch grip high pull, that makes sense. And I reread the article and noticed that the front squat percent is based off the clean. Wouldn't I also need to find a back squat max to prepare for the strength cycle or is that based off the clean as well?

Guest 06-25-2006 03:53 PM

Nick - yes, back squat % is also based on 1RM clean

Neil - I would start making regular trips to la pharmacia. I think the reality is that you may have to sacrifice some degree of some aspects of fitness to seriously pursue one in particular. That said, those things can then be brought back up. The strength/metcon thing is the perfect example. To make serious weight/strength gains, you'll probably need to put metabolic conditioning on the back burner temporarily. But, once you've brought strength and BW up to desired levels, you can use those things to develop an even higher level of metabolic conditioning that you had before. Imagine doing Diane with a max deadlift of 275 lbs vs. with 400 lbs.

I think trying to combine 2, especially 3, different goals like that will just dilute the stimuli for each and result in a lot of wheel spinning. In my experience, metcon comes back very quickly. I would really recommend concentrating on size and strength for at least a couple months at a time and let the metcon go as it will, then bring it back up. It's a lot easier to maintain weight/strength while building metcon than build all together.

Neal Winkler 06-25-2006 03:57 PM

Greg,

Would just doing a short WOD at the end that included legs mess anything up since you call for circuits at the end anyway? A NAGA match is only 6 minutes long, and there isn't one in my neck of the woods scheduled anytime soon, so I wonder if I could just get by with a 6 minute WOD at the end in place of the circuits you call for.


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