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-   -   T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit (http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=38880)

Matthew Stafford 11-04-2008 08:27 AM

T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
The Truth about CrossFit (maybe wfs, it's T-nation)

Just saw this pop up on my feed reader, and it is actually a pretty excellent article about the pros and cons of CrossFit. He definitely does his research, too.

Jamie J. Skibicki 11-04-2008 09:26 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
I've always like T-nation and this article reinforces my opinion. THe telling part was the last paragraph.
" Yes ... but only if the benefits it offers are the ones you seek. As long as its goals match your goals, I recommend it."

If someone wants to compete at a high level, they are going have to specialize. But CF will still be a portion of their training for gpp. We've acknowledge it oursleves with Gant Hybrid, Rips Barbell work, Cf endruance and PMenu. This doesn't mean CF is lacking, it means people have aspirations to specialize more than strict CF allows. SOme people want to be pretty good at everything. Some people want to be really good at few things and decent at the rest.

As far as the comments about Glassman, the skill set to start, develop, and create something are usually much different than the skill set need to grow and nuture a mature product. Look at Apple (Gates and Balmer are notable excpetions), most start ups (especailly in technology). The guy who creates the company is not the one that runs it.

I think if a CFer had been bitten by the bodybuilding bug, T-nation would be an excellent place to go to learn more.

Kevin Wood 11-04-2008 09:39 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Charles Poliquin: "If you try to do everything in your workout, you get nothing. CrossFit is different, and maybe even fun for some people, but it's not very effective. No athlete has ever gotten good training like that."

I don't know about that...

James Withington 11-04-2008 10:08 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
A very good, very fair article. :thumbs_up

Jared Ashley 11-04-2008 10:23 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Wood (Post 438110)
Charles Poliquin: "If you try to do everything in your workout, you get nothing. CrossFit is different, and maybe even fun for some people, but it's not very effective. No athlete has ever gotten good training like that."

I don't know about that...

yeah... it's a recurring over-simplification of a claim with it's root in truth.

The true statement: No athlete has ever reached elite status in their sport training exclusively GPP.

The exaggeration: CF/GPP might be fun, but it's useless to the athlete.

the flip side of this argument comes from the WOD nazi's:

The true statement: GPP is an integral part of nearly all athletic endeavours, and CF is an excellent resource to supplement a training program.

The exaggeration: CF makes you awesome at everything. If you want to win, just shut up and do the WOD.

Jimi Miller 11-04-2008 10:41 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Stafford (Post 438063)
The Truth about CrossFit (maybe wfs, it's T-nation)

Just saw this pop up on my feed reader, and it is actually a pretty excellent article about the pros and cons of CrossFit. He definitely does his research, too.

Good article. Thanks for the heads-up.

Jacob Cloud 11-04-2008 10:47 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
I'd say it's pretty good, but I think they could have hit on some of the positive experiences quite a bit more.

Take for example, this community vs. the T-nation forums. Nuff said.

James Compora 11-04-2008 11:13 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
i like how he actually stated the truth about kipping pullups, everytime i watch a video on youtube of crossfit workouts everyone comments........"OMG WHAT KIND OF CHEATER PULL-UP IS THAT" kinda annoying lol

Jamie J. Skibicki 11-04-2008 12:44 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
I got the same kind of comments about my push presses yesterday. I'm not doing an over head press, I'm doing a push press, different excersize. It's only cheating if aren;t doing what you set out to do. It's like saying the forward pass in football is cheating because it isn't allowed in rugby. Too different sports with different rules.

Robert Callahan 11-04-2008 12:51 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Very well written article. It is nice to see intelligent well thought out descriptions like that. It makes me happy :)

-Robert

Caleb Thomas 11-04-2008 01:03 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
I thought it was a good article too. I was happy to see him acknowledge kipping.

Christopher J Barnes 11-04-2008 03:28 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
The thing I appreciated most from the article was the end: "Allegiances and preferences aside, I'm just glad to see people getting into a gym, whether it's Gold's, Curves, or a CrossFit gym in some city's warehouse district." (Emphasis mine)

Chris Shugart 11-04-2008 04:27 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
I'm glad you guys found the article fair and balanced. Props to Troy at CrossFit Plano and Sam at CrossFit Dallas Central.

Robert Callahan 11-04-2008 04:35 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Shugart (Post 438473)
I'm glad you guys found the article fair and balanced. Props to Troy at CrossFit Plano and Sam at CrossFit Dallas Central.

Well hey! Welcome to the CF boards Chris :)

David Schneider 11-04-2008 04:38 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Shugart (Post 438473)
I'm glad you guys found the article fair and balanced. Props to Troy at CrossFit Plano and Sam at CrossFit Dallas Central.

:welcome:

I've read some good stuff from you in the past.

Glad you decided to stop by.

Darrell E. White 11-04-2008 05:39 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Hey Chris!

I agree that your article was in general well-balanced and fair. Crossfit is what it is--the most complete GPP program yet developed. It can form the foundation upon which you base your SPP, or it can be adapted to provide a bias in multiple dimensions (see www.crossfitendurance.com). It is not, regardless of what anyone might say, a program that is designed to compete against any program for specialists. You get it.

My only criticism is in your treatment of Greg Glassman. While Greg is admittedly a lightening rod, isn't that in part the required role for the founder/leader/mouthpiece for any new movement of any kind? Your observations are in general accurate, but you took the easy route in seeking comment from individuals who are openly hostile. The insight you showed from your own investigation leads me to believe that your article would have had greater credibility if you had done more "own eyes" research.

One wonders, will you continue to explore Crossfit as part of your personal program?

-bingo

Joe Cavazos 11-04-2008 06:18 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
At the CrossFit boards: "Great article! This is a favorable representation of CrossFit!"

At the T-Nation boards: "Great article! This CrossFit stuff is a load of crap!"

Joseph Abraham 11-04-2008 07:11 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
I feel like what this article is missing is the spread of information that is occuring because of crossfit.

Average people are now doing deadlifts, squats, pullups, olympic lifts whereas before these same people were just doing just the elliptical.

People are benefiting from the spread of GOOD information and workout that actually carry over to the real world.

Powerlifting, olympic lifting, marathon running just isn't accessible to most people.

Without crossfit this information would only be accessible if your in the NFL, going to the olympics, or some elite athlete. Now I can do these workouts with an affiliate.

I guess I just drink the Kool aid for now but I don't think traditional sports like gymastics, powerlifting, running, promote overall fitness and its just not accessible to working joe's like myself.

Christian Gotcher 11-04-2008 08:01 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
This is perhaps one of the most professional and thought-out articles on Crossfit I've read in a while. I don't have many talking points (as of yet).

I personally don't find anything wrong with Uncle Rhabdo, as it reminds people of the presence of the possibility without stigmatizing them. It promotes high intensity and safety without inspiring fear. Glassman's piece on Crossfit Radio 3.5, in his counter to Mike Boyle's comment on the exact same image, answers this challenge splendidly (anyone looking to analyze Crossfit should watch that podcast- it has a lot of good and a touch of ugly to play with).

Yes, Glassman is frank. I don't think I'd like the guy all too much if I met him in a bar. As Rip said it "I don't like the guy- he doesn't drink my brand of scotch." His no-holds-barred approach has permeated down, but here's my question- does his personality matter? I don't think it does once you get to the affiliate level. Some clients I've met have no idea of the 'big-picture' community of Crossfit and don't know the Glassmans at all. They know their coaches are giving them high quality training in new and functional movement- that's all they care about.

I appreciate the analysis of the kipping pullup. I haven't given up no the deadhang either (mostly because my job won't allow me to entirely). One thing I've found is that my technique has a great deal to do with how favorably people see the kip. If I'm fluid, fast, and powerful, people ask me what it is I'm doing. If I'm tired and floppy, people give me the evil eye like I'm 'cheating.'

Emily Maisannes 11-04-2008 08:05 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
As a newbie, I think it is a fair article. It is the kind of article that would have encouraged me to check it out before I really knew anything about it.

I don't know enough about Glassman to comment on the claims made.

The only thing I take issue with is the brief portrayal of Mimms. Wasn't he in his first workout? Would you consider someone who played one game of basketball a basketball player? The article leads the reader to believe that in using the term "Crossfitter" associated with Mimms that he had been a regular visitor when he got rhabdo.

Maybe I'm just mincing words, but often connotation is every bit as powerful as denotation. Ok, so shoot me. I used to be a technical writer.

Casey Raiford 11-04-2008 08:11 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
One thing about Crossfit coverage in general (such as it is) is that CF is generally stigmatized with Rhabdo. This article falls into the same pattern, meaning that it makes is sound like CF is the only thing in the entire world that can cause rhabdo. Know what the single biggest cause of rhabdo in the US military is? Basic training.

Yes, CF can cause rhabdo. So can powerlifting, ultradistance running and a host of other athletic endeavors. Getting your @$$ off the couch and into the world causes all manner of complications, it's up to each of us to use some common sense and self awareness.

Daniel Gam 11-04-2008 09:57 PM

T-nation article
 
i don't know if this is the appropriate place to post this, but what did you guys think about the T-nation article's assessment of crossfit

www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sex_news_sports_funny/the_truth_about_crossfit (safe link (except for the usual disclaimers about T-Nation (near-nudity, etc.))


Merged from another thread

Shane Skowron 11-04-2008 11:26 PM

Re: T-nation article
 
I found this article pretty good. Fair and realistic.

The only thing that bugged me was the inclusion of :
And here's Charles Poliquin: "If you try to do everything in your workout, you get nothing. CrossFit is different, and maybe even fun for some people, but it's not very effective. No athlete has ever gotten good training like that."

That's more a beef with Poliquin than with this article, but I don't see the need to include the quote there.

Christopher Day 11-05-2008 12:18 AM

Re: T-nation article
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Gam (Post 438687)
i don't know if this is the appropriate place to post this, but what did you guys think about the T-nation article's assessment of crossfit

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...about_crossfit

Quite honestly, this article is legit and scores on most of its key points. Crossfit is legitimately about community built on a foundation of intensity and scalability. Its program is unanimously defined as GPP. It's exceptionally difficult and it works.

That said, the CrossFit community is massive and often disconnected, other than through the main site portal. Quality control can be an issue but this is not a fault of HQ. (CrossFit can also accurately be said to have educated more people about safety and technique than almost any other fitness community currently active.)

CrossFit's claims about hypertrophy are unreasonable and based on untenable or straw man assumptions. Also, despite CrossFit's continual efforts to educate the public about Rhabdomyalisis, the clowning of the issue (which might originally have been an appropriate inside joke, but is no longer) is a continual source of embarassment.

This article does a credit to T-Nation in my opinion.

Adam Pirri 11-05-2008 01:36 AM

Re: T-nation article
 
Completely agree with Chris.
On a whole i think it was a good article, either way with all the media attention more people discover CrossFit.

Shugart credits Crossfit for what it is and good to see him actually visiting a few affiliates before writing an article, he actually attempted to understand CrossFit rather than just sit there and critique it without trying it.

Like any program every coach has their own opinion on creating the "perfect" program for the client or population they are training.

CrossFit reaches out to a huge worldwide population and supplies a generic GPP to create an all round well balanced individual ready for lifes everyday activities.

Shawn Casey 11-05-2008 01:46 AM

Re: T-nation article
 
Has anyone died from crossfit induced rhabdo yet?

Nick Cummings 11-05-2008 06:51 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Am I the only one who sees a discrepency between how reasonable TC is when he disaparages someone versus how unreasonable Greg is when he disparages someone? Flipantly calling someone's life work baseless filth for the masses is reasonable; however, responding with if it is so trivial why don't you publicly attempt the workout you dismiss is characterized by being an egomaniac.

I guess its all a matter of perspective in the end.

I do want to say that this level of research and thought into an article at T-Nation on CrossFit is suprising and refreshing as I am a longtime fan of both places.

Bethany Wadsworth 11-05-2008 07:56 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
I thought the article was good. I've been reading T-nation for years and gotten alot of good information. I never thought, however, that I'd see a picture of me there (page 2 with Glassman)! LOL! Almost spit my coffee all over my keyboard!

Tom Brose 11-05-2008 09:14 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
My pic is on their too, uhh checking form on Libby at the CF games.

Overall, much better than I expected, and good that Shugart checked out some affiliates first. I do agree that while bringing up Coaches public battles is fair game, would be nice to see some commentary on any of the thousands of people he has helped, charity projects, gratis work with military, etc, etc.

The whole thing with Rhabdo still puzzles me, no other fitness organization discusses it, the causes, ways to avoid etc. It is common in marathons, but because we openly discuss it, it is being trivialized?

Matthew Stafford 11-05-2008 09:25 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by David Schneider (Post 438483)
:welcome:

I've read some good stuff from you in the past.

Glad you decided to stop by.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Shugart (Post 438473)
I'm glad you guys found the article fair and balanced. Props to Troy at CrossFit Plano and Sam at CrossFit Dallas Central.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Brose (Post 438919)
My pic is on their too, uhh checking form on Libby at the CF games.

Overall, much better than I expected, and good that Shugart checked out some affiliates first. I do agree that while bringing up Coaches public battles is fair game, would be nice to see some commentary on any of the thousands of people he has helped, charity projects, gratis work with military, etc, etc.

The whole thing with Rhabdo still puzzles me, no other fitness organization discusses it, the causes, ways to avoid etc. It is common in marathons, but because we openly discuss it, it is being trivialized?

I think the problem is that by openly discussing it and even having a mascot for it, we make it seem like a bigger problem for CrossFit than it actually is. I'm sure if any statistics were compiled, CrossFit would not have any more occurrences of Rhabdo than any other activity/sport but because we talk about it so often it makes it seem like we do.

Think of it this way, we have a mascot for puking because we probably puke more than the average fitness enthusiast. We also have a mascot for rhabdo, so a person could assume our muscles break down and die more than the average fitness enthusiast.

It's all in the marketing.

Bart Hodlik 11-05-2008 11:45 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
I think that there will never be a truly "independent" reasonable article written by either side (T-nation or CF). One prime example... at the link for the article, at the bottom, you have pics of half naked women... go to this site to see more. Then you have ads selling whatever supplement. The mind set is different between the two communities. And no matter how much certain people from either side cross over to check out what's going on, on the other side to learn more, a larger group will not accept what's reviewed and written about.
Its good that we're all in the gym, instead of on the couch, but our goals and mind set are vastly different, while competing to be the "best" of either one.

Phillip Garrison 11-05-2008 03:16 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
I think the article takes a fairly objective look at Crossfit and Glassman, who certainly has his detractors and for some valid reasons.

Phillip Garrison 11-05-2008 03:21 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Casey Raiford (Post 438618)
One thing about Crossfit coverage in general (such as it is) is that CF is generally stigmatized with Rhabdo. This article falls into the same pattern, meaning that it makes is sound like CF is the only thing in the entire world that can cause rhabdo. Know what the single biggest cause of rhabdo in the US military is? Basic training.

Yes, CF can cause rhabdo. So can powerlifting, ultradistance running and a host of other athletic endeavors. Getting your @$$ off the couch and into the world causes all manner of complications, it's up to each of us to use some common sense and self awareness.

CF keeps getting associated with rahbdo of it's own doing, if they don't want to be linked with it, get rid of Uncle Rahbdo

Ryan Jones 11-05-2008 05:01 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart Hodlik (Post 439047)
I think that there will never be a truly "independent" reasonable article written by either side (T-nation or CF). One prime example... at the link for the article, at the bottom, you have pics of half naked women... go to this site to see more.

I love those pictures :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Stafford (Post 438928)
I think the problem is that by openly discussing it and even having a mascot for it, we make it seem like a bigger problem for CrossFit than it actually is. I'm sure if any statistics were compiled, CrossFit would not have any more occurrences of Rhabdo than any other activity/sport but because we talk about it so often it makes it seem like we do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq (Post 439279)
CF keeps getting associated with rahbdo of it's own doing, if they don't want to be linked with it, get rid of Uncle Rahbdo

Crossfit has far less cases of rhabdo than traditional military pt, marathons, and many, many other athletic endeavours. If not for CF most people would not even know what rhabdo is. The criticism CF receives over rhabdo is ridiculous considering, relatively speaking, rhabdo is hardly an issue with CF, and CF is the only place I know of that does any sort of education about rhabdo whatsoever. Talk about shooting the messenger... No one with half a brain could believe that CF trivializes rhabdo. As for Makimba Mimms he's an obvious fraud who deserves to be mocked in public. If a 7 year old can do something four times faster than you with no adverse affects then there's no way in hell that activity caused you rhabdo.

Brandon Oto 11-05-2008 05:21 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Jones (Post 439341)
Crossfit has far less cases of rhabdo than traditional military pt, marathons, and many, many other athletic endeavours.

Source for that?

Ryan Jones 11-05-2008 05:26 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon Oto (Post 439349)
Source for that?

I know in one of the crossfit radio podcasts the scout/sniper school instructor said rhabdo cases have decreased to 0 since the implementation of crossfit. I don't remember the article(s) I've read that indicated the large number of rhabdo cases across other military PT. I know Coach has mentioned in numerous places how rare rhabdo is in crossfit, but again can't point to any specific places. Sorry my memory is **** and I can only remember summaries not details. Just like I don't remember where I read that exercise is even only the fifth most often cause of rhabdo behind such things as drug use, alcohol use, crushing trauma, and one other I don't remember.

Brandon Oto 11-05-2008 05:32 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Okay. Let's not use it to make a point then.

Chad Waterbury 11-05-2008 05:57 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
I just want to take a second to jump on this thread and say that I'm impressed by the discussions that occur on the CF boards. Even when you don't agree with what a person or article states, you still manage to respect the opinions of others without resorting to personal attacks.

That's a great example to set. I wish other fitness forums would take note.

Casey Raiford 11-05-2008 06:22 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Jones (Post 439341)
Crossfit has far less cases of rhabdo than traditional military pt, marathons, and many, many other athletic endeavours.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon Oto (Post 439349)
Source for that?

This might be it:

http://afhsc.army.mil/msmr_pdfs/2008/v15_n02.pdf


It starts on page 8.

Richard Doughty 11-05-2008 09:54 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
chris quoted me for the article , im a big fan of his i'm so stoked right now


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