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-   -   A gallon of milk? (http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=23633)

Zach Forrest 02-07-2008 12:48 PM

Re: A gallon of milk?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason M Struck (Post 254055)
I gained about 19 pounds of muscle in 6 weeks drinking about 40-60oz of 1% a day to bring my calories up to about 3000-3500 (I started at 156@13%, and went to about 173@9%).

Already established that 19lbs. of muscle is NOT possible in 6 weeks. That would be barely possible in 18 months :yikes:

If you mind me asking Jason, how tall are you? I'm going to go ahead and guess...5'10" or taller, right?

Anyways, what probably happened with you was more than likely due to the fact that you introduced a broad spectrum protein source in large steady amounts after lacking them for 5 years as a vegan (what type of vegan were you? aren't there different kinds?)

What seems more reasonable is that you just gained around 4lbs. of muscle while completely filling you water and glycogen stores in your body...which makes total sense if you are coming from an under-delievered spectrum protein diet. You more than likely also gained some fat as well.

But then again, I am a born skeptic. You could be a genetic freak as there are ALWAYS expceptions to the rules.

BTW, what method did you use to measure your bf%?

Congrats on the gains though, hope you gained some poundage on your lifts.

Sean Dunston 02-07-2008 01:46 PM

Re: A gallon of milk?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zach Forrest (Post 254085)
Already established that 19lbs. of muscle is NOT possible in 6 weeks. That would be barely possible in 18 months :yikes:

Zach-
Established?
No - you put it forth as a fact in one of your posts in this thread, but you seem to be the only person pushing that line of thought. I just noticed that you are the same guy in disbelief that a big guy (over 6' and over 200#) can do Fran in under 4:00.

Do you have scientific studies to support these facts that you did not cite in your previous posts?

I would hardly agree with you that it has been "established" to not be possible to gain that much muscle - or that it is impossible for a big guy to whip through Fran in less time than 4:00.

YMMV.

Tom Rawls 02-07-2008 02:08 PM

Re: A gallon of milk?
 
Jason said he was a vegetarian, not a vegan. Big difference. Vegetarians have many sources of protein, including dairy and eggs. Vegetarians may not be getting the protein of omnivores, but there's no reason to believe they are protein deficient.

As for his adding glycogen and water stores, if one is eating grains, vegetables, and fruits, there is no reason for glycogen and the water stores associated with it to be low.

Damed if I know what made up the 19 additional pounds, but I'm unconvinced by Zach's analysis.

Tom Fetter 02-07-2008 02:09 PM

Re: A gallon of milk?
 
Zach? You're moving perilously close to trolling behaviour ... don't think that's your intent.

Before jumping all over claims of muscle gains in silly-short timeframes, maybe look at people's experience with programs like Coach Rippetoe's "Starting Strength." In 30+ years of running a gym, Rip says it's no astonishing thing to put up to 60 pounds of bodyweight onto a untrained, genetically favoured kid in 6 months. The trick is to focus pretty much entirely on the big compound lifts, squatting 3X week, keep to a linear progression, sleep ... and eat. Most won't eat/train hard enough to do that - so the norm is more like 30-40.

Even considering that some of that mass will be fat ... it's a long ways from the 19 pounds in 18 months that you proposed as almost unattainable.

Hell, even in my own case just CrossFitting since last July ... bodyweight's stayed essentially the same, though my body composition has changed pretty radically. I've likely switched out 10-15 pounds of fat for muscle in that period, without focusing on adding mass. The truth of it's reflected in my increased work capacity at the same bodyweight, by the mirror, and by the clothes I've grown out of across the shoulders and back.

... and at 45, I'm no "genetically favoured kid."

John Alston 02-07-2008 02:30 PM

Re: A gallon of milk?
 
http://************.net/forum/showthread.php?t=431
Rippetoe on milk. Sorry if this already got posted in this thread, I didn't see it.

John Edmondson 02-07-2008 03:08 PM

Re: A gallon of milk?
 
Nikki, Brendan posted on comments around the time that this was such a hot topic that he was drinking a gallon of whole milk on top of his usual 17 zone blocks. The day before that his girlfriend Shari posted something to the same affect, also on comments.

James Napier 02-07-2008 03:22 PM

Re: A gallon of milk?
 
I get most of my animal fat from cheese, never milk. Most of my meats are equal seafood and poultry with ocassional beef and rarely pork. Is this enough animal fat from a paleo perspective if my intent is to continue to gain strength while I am slowly losing body fat? I had considered fish oil but do not know what to expect from it along with cf, paleo and IF.

Lenora Galitz-Pfeffer 02-07-2008 03:28 PM

Re: A gallon of milk?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by James Napier (Post 254216)
I get most of my animal fat from cheese, never milk. Most of my meats are equal seafood and poultry with ocassional beef and rarely pork. Is this enough animal fat from a paleo perspective if my intent is to continue to gain strength while I am slowly losing body fat? I had considered fish oil but do not know what to expect from it along with cf, paleo and IF.

for Paleo, that's plenty of animal fat. If you are both gaining strength and losing bodyfat at the same time, you'll want to stress fats like avacado, and definately fish oil, and flaxseed oil. Walnuts in moderation also help. Fish oil helps in reducing soreness. It has gotten me through my first 2 newbie months.

Craig Van De Walker 02-07-2008 07:14 PM

Re: A gallon of milk?
 
Zach,
It usually bugs me when someone speaks about what is impossible as a "FACT"

Look up the Colorado experiment.

First subject (Casey Viator), 28 days
Increase in bodyweight........45.28 pounds
Loss of bodyfat..............17.93 pounds
Muscular gain.................63.21 pounds

Second subject (Arthur Jones),22 days
Increase in bodyweight .......13.62 pounds
Loss of bodyfat...............1.82 pounds
Muscular gain.................15.44 pounds

Obviously not normal results. I personally gained about 40 lbs in three months in my youth. Much of it muscle, it is "possible" but just maybe not what the usual is!

Zach Forrest 02-07-2008 07:29 PM

Re: A gallon of milk?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Fetter (Post 254148)
Zach? You're moving perilously close to trolling behaviour ... don't think that's your intent.

--- Rip says it's no astonishing thing to put up to 60 pounds of bodyweight onto a untrained, genetically favoured kid in 6 months.

Even considering that some of that mass will be fat ... it's a long ways from the 19 pounds in 18 months that you proposed as almost unattainable.

I'm not exactly sure what trolling is, but it definetly doesn't sound like something I'd want to be doing.

60# of bodyweight is COMPLETELY possible. 60# of MUSCLE is not. What I'm trying to point out is that there is a HUGE difference between bodyweight, lean body mass(muscle weight+bone+water+glycogen), and just dry muscle weight. That is my only point.

19# of bodyweight is easy in 18 months, 19# of LBM is even possible...but 19# of dry muscle weight is something completely different. It would be hard, not impossible, but hard to obtain that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Rawls (Post 254147)
Jason said he was a vegetarian, not a vegan. Big difference. Vegetarians have many sources of protein, including dairy and eggs. Vegetarians may not be getting the protein of omnivores, but there's no reason to believe they are protein deficient.

Thanks for clearing that up, I know there are different types of "vegetarian" diets, but I am not too knowledgable on those differences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Dunston (Post 254130)
Zach-
Established?
No - you put it forth as a fact in one of your posts in this thread, but you seem to be the only person pushing that line of thought. I just noticed that you are the same guy in disbelief that a big guy (over 6' and over 200#) can do Fran in under 4:00.

YMMV.

I've read in a couple scientific journals and university studies that propose this line of thinking.

Journal of Sports Science and Medicine (w/fs) has some good info on muscle growth/recovery

T-Nation's article was already posted I believe, but in case you missed it

I am still looking for the two I specifically remember from Scientific America (I think) and a University Study, I'll post them as soon as I can.

What does YMMV mean?

Again, I'm just discussing guys. I'm not trying to "troll?" or sound rude or pig-headed or anything like that. Sorry if I come off like a jerk, I'll try and be more courteous. Hey, who knows...I could be completely and utterly wrong (gee, wouldn't I feel like a moron).


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