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-   -   Deadlift, squat and power clean (https://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=32530)

David Gessen 05-31-2008 03:34 AM

Deadlift, squat and power clean
 
15 5'8 143lbs


Squat
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq90PNZhJHQ[/url]
WFS

Deadlift
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8seuz70XRw[/url]
WFS



now, after dropping weight off the bar, I fixed the problem?

I'll post my power clean form next workout here.

Jamie J. Skibicki 05-31-2008 07:50 AM

Re: Deadlift, squat and power clean
 
THe squat video sucked, couldn't see anything, try again.

The deadlift wasn't too bad. I can't be sure but it looked like your arm were hitting your knees at the start position. If they were, make your stance more narrow. Your feet should be shoulder width, its a much more narrow stance than the squat. On the last 2, you raised your hips up a bit before lifting the bar. Once you are set, any movement of the body should equal a movement of the bar. And don't lead with the hips.

Robert Callahan 05-31-2008 02:04 PM

Re: Deadlift, squat and power clean
 
Drop that butt more in the start position for the deadlift :)

-Robert

Frank E Morel 05-31-2008 03:07 PM

Re: Deadlift, squat and power clean
 
maybe try asking someone to hold the camera for you instead of getting them to stand in front of it.

BTw what happened to training at the powerlifting club that you spoke about a few weeks ago, after getting kicked out of the gym.

Veronica Davis 05-31-2008 04:39 PM

Re: Deadlift, squat and power clean
 
David...

Squat - Although it would be better to have a squat video from the side, the one thing I noticed is on your way back up, you drop your chest and lead up with your butt. Almost like a good morning, but not quite as exaggerated. If you look at the video, when you are on the way up your head drops, your butt starts coming up and then you lift your head back up. I do it too once I get a few reps in. For me, I realized that it's a core strength (or lack there of) issue.

DL - looks pretty good. I agree with the other recommendations. On a side note: when you are getting ready to start a set DO NOT LET ANYONE DISTRACT YOU!!!!!!!!! Once your hands touch the metal, all you should hear is silence. Over time you'll learn how to get in the silent zone.

Alex Nisetich 05-31-2008 07:09 PM

Re: Deadlift, squat and power clean
 
Squat -Hard to tell from the video, but it looks like you could be getting an inch or two lower; I've found that for me when I actually get low it feels like I'm TOO low, so really get down there. Aside from that, you're definitely doing a pronounced double clutch on the way up. That is, your chest and head drop and you finish the movement by extending your lower back, as in a good morning. This is a problem that you'll need to fix if you want to do heavy weights. Use your hips to squat, not your quads, and work on strengthening your back. Be careful not to overthink -if you are trying consciously to drive with your hips, then that could also cause you to bend forward too far.

Deadlift -Get your feet narrower and lock out your arms from the starting position. By bending your arms you aren't getting as much power from your back as possible. Your shoulders should be over the bar, and that may feel like they're even slightly forward of it. The deadlift is a pull, and you should feel it in your upper and middle back (traps and lats).

For the record, you're never going to get these lifts perfect. My squats and deads are different every time I do them. Now that I've been doing them for several years, I know what good form feels like and when I need to tweak things. Don't get frustrated if you're not doing a great job right away. As you learn good form, your muscles remember the motion and it becomes easier to reproduce.

David Gessen 06-01-2008 04:01 AM

Re: Deadlift, squat and power clean
 
[QUOTE=Robert Callahan;322230]Drop that butt more in the start position for the deadlift :)

-Robert[/QUOTE]
wouldn't that cause the shoulders over the bar?

[QUOTE=Frank E Morel;322250]maybe try asking someone to hold the camera for you instead of getting them to stand in front of it.

BTw what happened to training at the powerlifting club that you spoke about a few weeks ago, after getting kicked out of the gym.[/QUOTE]
The head instructor told me that now he don't care if i'll injure myself as long as I pay the money:rofl:

[QUOTE=Veronica Davis;322297]David...

Squat - Although it would be better to have a squat video from the side, the one thing I noticed is on your way back up, you drop your chest and lead up with your butt. Almost like a good morning, but not quite as exaggerated. If you look at the video, when you are on the way up your head drops, your butt starts coming up and then you lift your head back up. I do it too once I get a few reps in. For me, I realized that it's a core strength (or lack there of) issue.

DL - looks pretty good. I agree with the other recommendations. On a side note: when you are getting ready to start a set DO NOT LET ANYONE DISTRACT YOU!!!!!!!!! Once your hands touch the metal, all you should hear is silence. Over time you'll learn how to get in the silent zone.[/QUOTE]
I should lead with my butt, this is exactly what rip says.
I'm not supposed to lead with my chest, I even asked rip about this and he says that I should lead with my chest.

[QUOTE=Alex Nisetich;322368]Squat -Hard to tell from the video, but it looks like you could be getting an inch or two lower; I've found that for me when I actually get low it feels like I'm TOO low, so really get down there. Aside from that, you're definitely doing a pronounced double clutch on the way up. That is, your chest and head drop and you finish the movement by extending your lower back, as in a good morning. This is a problem that you'll need to fix if you want to do heavy weights. Use your hips to squat, not your quads, and work on strengthening your back. Be careful not to overthink -if you are trying consciously to drive with your hips, then that could also cause you to bend forward too far.

Deadlift -Get your feet narrower and lock out your arms from the starting position. By bending your arms you aren't getting as much power from your back as possible. Your shoulders should be over the bar, and that may feel like they're even slightly forward of it. The deadlift is a pull, and you should feel it in your upper and middle back (traps and lats).

For the record, you're never going to get these lifts perfect. My squats and deads are different every time I do them. Now that I've been doing them for several years, I know what good form feels like and when I need to tweak things. Don't get frustrated if you're not doing a great job right away. As you learn good form, your muscles remember the motion and it becomes easier to reproduce.[/QUOTE]
The shoulders should be in front of the bar.

Brandon Oto 06-01-2008 04:36 AM

Re: Deadlift, squat and power clean
 
[QUOTE=David Gessen;322485]wouldn't that cause the shoulders over the bar?[/QUOTE]

No, you've got a bit of room to move back, I think.

Make sure your arms are straight when you start, though, that's just silly.

And you must spend all day at the gym if this is how long it takes you to lift...

David Gessen 06-01-2008 04:58 AM

Re: Deadlift, squat and power clean
 
[QUOTE=Brandon Oto;322493]No, you've got a bit of room to move back, I think.

Make sure your arms are straight when you start, though, that's just silly.

And you must spend all day at the gym if this is how long it takes you to lift...[/QUOTE]

I'm supposed to deload.

Veronica Davis 06-01-2008 05:52 AM

Re: Deadlift, squat and power clean
 
David - The leading with your butt is right, but you are dropping your chest forward to do it. You are almost doing a good morning.

David Gessen 06-01-2008 12:31 PM

Re: Deadlift, squat and power clean
 
[QUOTE=Veronica Davis;322516]David - The leading with your butt is right, but you are dropping your chest forward to do it. You are almost doing a good morning.[/QUOTE]

and how do I fix that:D?

I remember you've posted a morning meal, eggs and oatmeal mixed.
going to try that tommorow morning, now preparing:)

Alex Nisetich 06-01-2008 02:08 PM

Re: Deadlift, squat and power clean
 
David,

Shoulders over the bar is a wording issue, your arms should be locked out over it, which in most people means that your shoulder visibly will be forward of the bar. You're correct to say that you should lead with your butt in the squat, but it should barely be perceptible, and your torso should not lead forward to initiate that hip drive.

Work on lower back strength -deadlifts, cleans, back extensions, good mornings, etc. -and this should become less of a problem. Your internal abdominals (transverse abdominis is the big one I believe) are also important for keeping your torso in the same position throughout the squat. Just doing more squats will strengthen these -deadlifts, presses, pullups, KB swings and Oly lifts are also very effective.

When squatting, concentrate on keeping your torso upright while still using hip drive to move the bar. Keep your eyes on one spot a few feet in front of you during the whole lift and don't move your head or eyes and your torso shouldn't move as much.

Veronica Davis 06-01-2008 04:03 PM

Re: Deadlift, squat and power clean
 
[QUOTE=David Gessen;322659]and how do I fix that:D?

I remember you've posted a morning meal, eggs and oatmeal mixed.
going to try that tommorow morning, now preparing:)[/QUOTE]

What Alex said. Developing your core strength give you the ability to avoid the lean forward. Box squats are also an effective way to improve squat form. Start with a box that is parallel and each time you do them lower the box.


Good luck with the pancakes!!!

Brandon Oto 06-01-2008 04:08 PM

Re: Deadlift, squat and power clean
 
But you're right that a bit of a hip rise is okay and signifies good hip drive.

I'm actually not that concerned with what you've got now, but yeah, you could clean it up a little.

John Keiper 06-03-2008 08:21 PM

Re: Deadlift, squat and power clean
 
Please do yourself a favor and get on WESTSIDE BARBELL or ELITEFTS websites and read some of the articles these guys have up. This will answer all of your form questions ans then some. These guys are the real deal. A few quick things. The squat begins with the hips breaking first not the knees. Sit BACK and down. Like some of the others have said keep your arms straight when you deadlift. It is possible to bend them with light weights but heavy stuff will get you into bicep tearing territory. In the deadlift the shoulders should never be in front of the bar. This is poor technique. You want them behind the bar so you can pull back and use your own weight to help the bar rise. Kinda like counterbalancing the bar so to speak. Hope this helps. Remember sometimes you have to go lighter to get stronger.

David Gessen 06-04-2008 06:19 AM

Re: Deadlift, squat and power clean
 
[QUOTE=John Keiper;324187]Please do yourself a favor and get on WESTSIDE BARBELL or ELITEFTS websites and read some of the articles these guys have up. This will answer all of your form questions ans then some. These guys are the real deal. A few quick things. The squat begins with the hips breaking first not the knees. Sit BACK and down. Like some of the others have said keep your arms straight when you deadlift. It is possible to bend them with light weights but heavy stuff will get you into bicep tearing territory. In the deadlift the shoulders should never be in front of the bar. This is poor technique. You want them behind the bar so you can pull back and use your own weight to help the bar rise. Kinda like counterbalancing the bar so to speak. Hope this helps. Remember sometimes you have to go lighter to get stronger.[/QUOTE]

Well, I guess you know more than Mark Rippetoe...

Jamie J. Skibicki 06-04-2008 07:57 AM

Re: Deadlift, squat and power clean
 
David,

John is discussing a powerlifting deadlift and squat. In the squat he's talking about, the legs are wider than what we use and what Rip suggests. In that case, the shins stay almost verticle. As far the deadlift, I'm not sure what causes the difference.

Brandon Oto 06-04-2008 08:22 AM

Re: Deadlift, squat and power clean
 
It's just different cues. Biomechanically the scapulae sit over the bar when it comes off the ground, but many powerlifters like to think about getting behind it.

John Keiper 06-04-2008 08:23 AM

Re: Deadlift, squat and power clean
 
[QUOTE=David Gessen;324383]Well, I guess you know more than Mark Rippetoe...[/QUOTE]

Sorry if it seemded that way but that is not what I intended. Hard to get emotion out over a computer i quess. And yes I was mainly talking about powerlifting style movements as this seems to be the style that was used in the video.

Jamie J. Skibicki 06-04-2008 09:03 AM

Re: Deadlift, squat and power clean
 
John,

David is just learning all this stuff and I don't think is well versed in the different yet accepted variances in lifting techniques. Also, most people here hold Rip in high regard, and can become somewhat defensive.

David,

I would be careful about dismissing information coming out of Westside. They have produced some impressive lifters and Rip mentions their dynamic lift protocol often and is in agreement.

John Keiper 06-04-2008 07:54 PM

Re: Deadlift, squat and power clean
 
David,
I only make these suggestions because if there is a mistake to be made in the squat I have made it! Probably a thousand times! Good luck.

David Gessen 06-05-2008 05:58 AM

Re: Deadlift, squat and power clean
 
Sorry if I was too direct, never thought you would talk about the powerlifting style.
I'm just used to the stupidity on the other boards that are full with people saying 'squatting deep are bad for the knees".

Jason Homesley 06-05-2008 06:53 AM

Re: Deadlift, squat and power clean
 
Here is a tip that works for everything that you are moving from the floor whether it is a dead, clean, or snatch. The start position with your feet should be the same as if you were about to jump onto a box. This will eliminate all wide stances and give you the most power. Then sit back on heals load the hamstrings and drive your hips forward while keeping the lumbar curve in back. Good luck to all.

Jason,

[url]www.tricitiescrossfit.blogspot.com[/url]

Derek Franks 06-05-2008 08:11 AM

Re: Deadlift, squat and power clean
 
[QUOTE=Jason Homesley;325180]Here is a tip that works for everything that you are moving from the floor whether it is a dead, clean, or snatch. The start position with your feet should be the same as if you were about to jump onto a box. This will eliminate all wide stances and give you the most power. Then sit back on heals load the hamstrings and drive your hips forward while keeping the lumbar curve in back. Good luck to all.

Jason,

[url]www.tricitiescrossfit.blogspot.com[/url][/QUOTE]

While not bad advice, I would disagree that eliminating wide stances gives you the most power. There's a reason competitive powerlifters use an extremely wide stance for both squats and DL's. That said, SS, which is what David is following right now, consists of a DL with the stance you describe, but a Squat with a significantly wider stance.

John Keiper 06-05-2008 07:56 PM

Re: Deadlift, squat and power clean
 
[QUOTE=Jason Homesley;325180]Here is a tip that works for everything that you are moving from the floor whether it is a dead, clean, or snatch. The start position with your feet should be the same as if you were about to jump onto a box. This will eliminate all wide stances and give you the most power. Then sit back on heals load the hamstrings and drive your hips forward while keeping the lumbar curve in back. Good luck to all.

Jason,

[url]www.tricitiescrossfit.blogspot.com[/url][/QUOTE]

Another tip along the same lines is to hang from a chin0up bar and drop to the ground. However your feet land is probably your best power stance.

Jason Homesley 06-06-2008 06:14 AM

Re: Deadlift, squat and power clean
 
[QUOTE=Derek Franks;325230]While not bad advice, I would disagree that eliminating wide stances gives you the most power. There's a reason competitive powerlifters use an extremely wide stance for both squats and DL's. That said, SS, which is what David is following right now, consists of a DL with the stance you describe, but a Squat with a significantly wider stance.[/QUOTE]

Derek, if you read what I said, "from the floor" then it makes perfect sense. of course you need a wider stance with a squat this is known as the land or squat position-feet slightly wider than shoulder width. Other than that, feet should be in the start position, jump position. You get the most power with your heels under your hips. You only go wider than shoulders for the squat because it gives more support not power.
The feet should also be under the hips during all shoulder movements, i.e. press, push press, push jerk. But if I continue I might as well start another thread....


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