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-   -   Don't believe in Paleo because... (https://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=40807)

Ben Chapman 12-29-2008 02:11 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
 
I don't think that's correct. I've met plenty of non-Christian people who still believe in ID.

Phillip Garrison 12-29-2008 02:13 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
 
[QUOTE=Ben Chapman;481117]I don't think that's correct. I've met plenty of non-Christian people who still believe in ID.[/QUOTE]

Really? Why aren't any of them vocal about it? Why are all the major ID organizations Christian based?

Benjamin Smith 12-29-2008 02:15 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
 
Ben,

I sympathize with your convictions on this subject (I was taught young-earth 6-day creationism as a child, but decided in my late teens that the mechanism of creation wasn't the hinge on which my faith would swing).

So here's my response to your initial conundrum - if you don't believe that humans adapted to a paleo diet through the evolutionary process, you can probably agree that the conditions under which humans were created according to the Biblical account are the same as the conditions under which the scientific consensus suggests we evolved.

Therefore:

Don't eat anything that wasn't available in the Garden of Eden.

It sounds silly, but I'm completely serious - this is the approach I would take if I was trying to talk my parents into eating Paleo. If you take the Bible literally (which I can respect), then you know that the Garden was the ideal environment, so just eat critters and plants. If you approach it from that standpoint, I doubt you'll find any inconsistencies with the Paleo/Primal approach.

C James Barton 12-29-2008 02:17 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
 
[QUOTE=Ben Chapman;481068]As to comparing it as a theory to other theories, I think that's a stretch. I beleive it's labeled the LAW of gravity and it is quite easily observable and reproducable, Nevermind that it's proven mathematically.[/QUOTE]

The Law of Gravity isn't proven mathematically, it's proven empirically - by experiment and observation.

IIRC, one of the early successes of Newton's LoG was that it could be used to derive Kepler's Laws of Planetary Motion - that is, it accounted for a lot of observations.

Of course, you ask about Mercury, counter-examples and laws-as-approximations...

Jamie J. Skibicki 12-29-2008 02:20 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
 
James,

You had to bring up mecury, didn't you. Okay, the variation in Mecury's orbit is accounted for my einsteins correction to gravitational theory (that close to the sun is enough to find a deviation, though small one, due to relativisitic effects). THis shows that even an incorrect, yet close theory, can be useful.

Frank Dennis 12-29-2008 02:20 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
 
[QUOTE=Jamie J. Skibicki;481080]The theories that support the earth being 4 billion years old are the same theories that we use to build nuclear reactors, particle coliders, Geiger counters, CRT tvs, look for oil, measure earth quakes, and determine how sound ground is for the construction of buildings.

What proof are you looking for exactly?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Ben Chapman;481088]Care to elaborate on that?[/QUOTE]

As a specific example:

[URL="http://www.metaresearch.org/cosmology/gps-relativity.asp"]GPS systems are affected by relativity[/URL] (wfs). The altitude at which satellites orbit is sufficient that the varaition in gravity affects how fast clocks in orbit are ticking vs. how fast they're ticking on the ground. If GPS and communications satellites did not acount for this difference in clock speed, then computer networks would lose time. It's not a huge difference, but it adds up.

This is just one example, but there are many more examples where current models of physical laws make predictions which bear out in how we interact with the universe. Of course, the very nature of science is that when something comes along which doesn't fit our model, the model gets updated. Using a model to describe the universe which had 7 concentric celestial spheres, with Earth at the center, worked just fine until the invention of the telescope.

The problem, from a scientific standpoint, is that these theories then make a young earth impossible because of other things we observe in the universe; for mass distribution to be what it is now, for the planets to be where they aren and how they are using nothing but the physical laws of the universe to achieve the current configuration, requires the sort of timeline coherent with evolutionary theory.

Of course, none of that matters if you believe that God created the universe and the earth is young, and I don't mean that in a disparaging way. If you have faith that there is a creator, then science is irrelevant; just because there appear to be rules in place for how the universe works around us, God by his very nature, as most people concieve him, can suspsend those rules at will and do whatever he wants.

As people have said on this thread before, in neither case can we be completely certain what our ancestors ate. When was the fishing pole invented? How long do you suppose ancient man, if evolution is correct, was eating shellfish he could dig out of the sand on the beach, before he finally could catch things like tuna or cod, and so why are these fish on the menu? Why is it, if creationism is correct, that pork was unhealthy before the coming of Christ, but not afterward? Pigs didn't change... did the universe change around them?

Absolutism is never truth, even things like gravity and the speed of light are variable in certain circumstances. I think the best way to approach the paleo diet, or any diet, or any endeavor which by definition requires personal experimentation, is to learn as best you can what's been done, what the basics are, and then adapt it to your goals as your experience increases.

Ben Chapman 12-29-2008 02:21 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
 
[QUOTE=Phillip Garrisonq;481119]Really? Why aren't any of them vocal about it? Why are all the major ID organizations Christian based?[/QUOTE]

Ever heard of Ben Stein? He's Jewish and a proponent of ID, he even made a movie about the suppression of it.

That really isn't the point though, You think it's all Christians, I can give you examples of people who believe it that aren't. But that's sort of a rabbit trail to what's being discussed here. Let's try to steer it away from religion again.

Ben Chapman 12-29-2008 02:24 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
 
[QUOTE=Benjamin Smith;481121]Ben,

I sympathize with your convictions on this subject (I was taught young-earth 6-day creationism as a child, but decided in my late teens that the mechanism of creation wasn't the hinge on which my faith would swing).

So here's my response to your initial conundrum - if you don't believe that humans adapted to a paleo diet through the evolutionary process, you can probably agree that the conditions under which humans were created according to the Biblical account are the same as the conditions under which the scientific consensus suggests we evolved.

Therefore:

Don't eat anything that wasn't available in the Garden of Eden.

It sounds silly, but I'm completely serious - this is the approach I would take if I was trying to talk my parents into eating Paleo. If you take the Bible literally (which I can respect), then you know that the Garden was the ideal environment, so just eat critters and plants. If you approach it from that standpoint, I doubt you'll find any inconsistencies with the Paleo/Primal approach.[/QUOTE]

Again, not doubting the Paleo diet's efficacy, I actually TRY to follow it as much as I can. I simply doubt the origin

Jamie J. Skibicki 12-29-2008 02:25 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
 
I think we should keep our arguments to a scienftific nature. One, if we don't, it's a violation of the AUP and second, nothing any of us say will change anyone's belief in what ever religion they believe in and is a waste of time.

Phillip Garrison 12-29-2008 02:27 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
 
The majority of the evidence to support the diet called the "paleo diet" is modern hunter gatherer societies. These societies have almost no incidences of heart disease, stroke, hypertension, diabetes, lung cancer, emphasema or obesity. Which are currently the 7 of the top 10 leading causes of death in the US and other "western countries".

The main reason why they have a lower average life span and life expectency than Americans is due to their lack of modern antibiotics and healthcare. Our people may have a lower mortality rate, but we have a much higher morbidity rate.

If it bothers you calling it the "Paleo diet" call is the "Hunter-gatherer diet" or the "Bushman diet"


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