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Matthew Stafford 12-29-2008 09:39 AM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
[QUOTE=Robert Wolf;480898]Also, for the continuity of YOUR argument you need to pick whether you are a new-earth creationist or if you DO buy into evolution (which you are saying is bunk) but with some outside influence. The inteligent design folks FULLY embrace evolution, an old earth and all of that. They are theoretically trying to say life is too complex a thing for it to have happened without outside intervention and have claimed since the early '90's to have a means of analyzing DNA and protein folding in such a way that "proves" this point. They have NEVER generated a scrap of data on this claim and have largely abandoned it.

One of the (many) problems with intelligent design is that it isn't a scientific theory, or even a hypothesis. It offers absolutely no testable ideas, putting it solidly in the realms of faith despite attempts to define it otherwise.

Bob Guere 12-29-2008 10:01 AM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
I'll weigh in as a pro-intelligent design/couldn't care how it got done evolution or otherwise/ Paleo believer. ???

Basically, if you want the Paleo diet to square with your convictions, simply insert "3000 B.C. man" for Grok. The diet is good for your body either way. Whether our bodies were designed to eat this way or we evolved to eat this way. Still, the same foods fill my plate.

Great discussion.

Jeff Hendrix 12-29-2008 10:16 AM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
[QUOTE=Matthew Stafford;480922]One of the (many) problems with intelligent design is that it isn't a scientific theory, or even a hypothesis. It offers absolutely no testable ideas, putting it solidly in the realms of faith despite attempts to define it otherwise.[/QUOTE]

All ideas will eventually come to this. Evolutionists and non-evolutionists alike must at some point give up the search because there will always be found something "smaller," if you will. And, hence, all ideas about the creation of humans, this earth, and the univserse itself must come to faith and, eventually, a prime mover.

But, as this is a nutrition thread and not one on matters of the heart. . . .

I have been trying to follow the paleo diet fairly closely since the summer despite my stance against evolution. I don't think God giving any particular type of food to Israel in the desert is necessarily a good argument to stuff ourselves silly with it. God also gave them quail until it was rotting and making them sick. This was not the time that Israel was particularly in God's favor (regarding blessings beyond freedom from Egyptian captivity and a return to Canaan). Having said that, I don't think the bread (or "mana" in the case of Israel's time in the desert) that our Western culture consumes today is anywhere near the stuff that they were ingesting, even at its best in most cases.

I have had pleasant results on this diet and I will continue to use it until something better comes along (if ever it does). Also, I just flat enjoy eating lots of meat and fat and vegetables! And the fact that it has had no noticeable detrimental effects on my health and has balanced my energy levels and helped my performance is great too! I'm not 100% on it, but I think I would feel even better if I were. Alas, sometimes the best thing for me to do is just stop at Moe's on the way home and grab a huge burrito, or to buy a pizza that I can eat for a couple of days. I'm hoping to fix that in about two years though (read: "once I finish college").

Robert Wolf 12-29-2008 10:46 AM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
[QUOTE=Matthew Stafford;480922]One of the (many) problems with intelligent design is that it isn't a scientific theory, or even a hypothesis. It offers absolutely no testable ideas, putting it solidly in the realms of faith despite attempts to define it otherwise.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. When they first hit the scene they made some pretty bold claims of being able to find "proof" in the DNA code for their positions. When pressed for ANY kind of supportive research they dropped these claims.

I was honestly very disapointed when I learned the agenda of the Discovery Institute. I've been a student of religion, spirituality and the Noetic sciences (study of consciousness, paranormal etc) for my years. I thought this was a legitimate attempt at bridging the gap between what people would generally term "science" and "religion" but it was simply an attempt to force home an agenda by people who are feeling marginalized....otherwise they would have defined their mission much differently.

Robert D Taylor Jr 12-29-2008 10:56 AM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
Not for nothing, but disagreeing with a diet because you disagree with the ideology around which it was named is ludicrous. Try it, if it works call it the Chapman diet and drive on.

Scott Allen Hanson 12-29-2008 11:06 AM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
First, let me say that I adhere to a generally paleo diet. I think it has strong scientific underpinnings and it is effective for me.

I do question one of the basic premises of the Paleo Diet, however, which I have not seen addressed by Cordain or others. The basic premise is that humans have not had time to adapt (or evolve) to consume foods not available to our paleolithic ancestors.

How does this square with the observed phenomenon of Northern European adaptation to dairy consumption (production of lactase) as opposed to Africans and Asians who cannot digest dairy. Is this an evolutionary adaptation or not? If so, doesn't this contradict the basic premise?

Zach Yarges 12-29-2008 11:08 AM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
I tried Paleo and I felt like crap on it and performed terribly. I still like the idea and concept of Paleo and try to limit my intake of grains and bread to a minimum and have found a happy place that I can work with. I have found that regardless of what diet I am on that water intake seems to affect my performance the most such as drinking mainly anything other than water for a day will translate into a grueling workout and if I am pounding the water I perform great.

Phillip Garrison 12-29-2008 11:41 AM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
Is someone actually not wanting to go paleo becuase they don't believe in evolution? You could believe in Adam and Eve and still see the benefits of the paleo diet. The people of the ancient world didn't eat like modern man does either. Humans weren't meant to eat giant muffins and coffee all day.

Phillip Garrison 12-29-2008 11:45 AM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
[QUOTE=Ben Chapman;480468]Ok, I will preface this thread with the statement that we need to be careful. I'm going to broach a topic that could easily descend into personal attacks and some heated, possibly unfriendly debate. I also caution people to not steer it towards religion, it is not the point of bringing this up.

First of all I will state that I think there are some real merits to the paleo diet, people see results with it and I am hugely in favor of consuming foods at their most natural level. Having said that, I am not a paleo believer free and clear. Why? Because one of the prefaces for the paleo diet comes from the concept of millions of years of human evolution. I don't believe in evolution in the sense that most others do; at least not in the sense of descent with modification; or speciation. I was a biology major in college and whenever I requested some evidence from the fossil record or otherwise to show true descent with modification, I came up not only completely dry, but devoid of anyone having examples that THEY had heard of (these are PhDs in zoology, ecology and microbiology). That being said, I have nothing against someone who believes it. I believe that its a THEORY (still a theory, yes) that has support in its favor, but also has some glaring holes and some often swept under and ignored support that is NOT in its favor.

This is all to say, or inquire to any other paleo non-believers out there. I believe that people see results from the diet and that it can work, but mostly because of other reasons: i.e. the hail back to very natural foods of wide variety. For the reasons above though, I do believe that some of the paleo no-nos are still open season for me: certain grains, like rices, oats and some very specific types of corn, I believe that human history is short enough and also intelligent enough that these foods played a role all the way through and are not something to simply be discarded.

Feel free to discuss, you can see how this might descend into a religious topic, which admittedly is where my overall starting point comes from. However, I think that I can talk on a logical and scientific level about it as well.

Agree? disagree?[/QUOTE]

Couldn't you believe in the diet based on current ethnographic studies of current hunter gatherer societies and the fact that they do not suffer from any of the current diseases that plagues "modern man" ?

Phillip Garrison 12-29-2008 11:50 AM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
[QUOTE=Scott Clark;480590]Right, but it's the claims that Paleo man experienced no cancer, cardiovascular disease, etc. that is the muscle behind the diet. It's those claims that are hard to verify scientifically and why I chalk Cordain's book in with The Zone, Sugar Busters, South Beach, Atkins, Ornish, Weight Watchers, etc. due to HUGE claims while offering little to no peer-reviewed evidence.

I don't care about the whole evolution side of things, I just want non-biased peer-reviewed studies done before I take the health claims with anything but a grain of salt.[/QUOTE]

The theory is based on fossil and dental records, but also largely on the the highly probably fact that very early man lived and ate almost the same way modern hunter gatherer tribes eat and live. These tribes do not have the disease trends we have. That is really the "meat" of the paleo argument.

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