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Ben Chapman 12-30-2008 12:14 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
I don't like going *** for tat on things. The site you posted is a personal website of someone with a history of doubt about the tracks. It's not a scientific site, not does the site cite any peer reviewed research. The site I'm posting doesn't either, but it is an interesting rebuttal to Kuban's site, also containing a picture that he does not address in his site and some interesting accusations.

The main point of this post is that I think both sites are biased enough and filled with heresay that they aren't a real good use of time to banter over, since they both have similar credibility and similar refutability. perhaps the human tracks thing was a poor example, but I remain solid in the fact that in the fossil record, current phyla are found right alongside extinct/ancient phyla.


Jared Grisham 12-30-2008 12:26 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
Humans did not live with dinosaurs. Are we actually debating this?

Tim Crawford 12-30-2008 12:31 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
[QUOTE=Jared Grisham;481779]Humans did not live with dinosaurs. Are we actually debating this?[/QUOTE]


It sounds like "Land of the Lost" to me!

Ben Chapman 12-30-2008 12:32 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
I wasn't trying to. I am merely pointing out that you can find a counterpoint for pretty much any obscure website you can find on a topic.

Robert D Taylor Jr 12-30-2008 12:40 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
Slick move mentioning the diet to debate Evolution vs. Creationism. I fail to see how discovery of mammals coexisting would destroy Evolution as a theory. Clearly, the timelines, which cover MILLIONS of years could be off. (No New Earth gobbledygook can steer me clear of this reality.)
Also is the link WFS?
Mods: this is obviously Stuff & Nonsense.

Robert Wolf 12-30-2008 12:46 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
[quote=Jared Grisham;481779]Humans did not live with dinosaurs. Are we actually debating this?[/quote]

Yes, which is partly why I have tapped out. At a certain point this is like arguing morality with vegetarians or [URL=""]FlatEarth[COLOR=Red]PLEASE ENSURE YOU ANNOTATE ALL LINKS WHETHER WORK AND FAMILY SAFE[/COLOR].[/URL] concepts.

Good discussion however and props to folks for keeping things civil.

You are a man of your convictions. I do not agree with your position but I certainly respect you for your patience, honesty and willingness to debate.

Has anyone read the book [I]Contact[/I]? The movie was pretty good, the book was phenomenal and really gets to the heart of this topic.

Neil Bauersfeld 12-30-2008 12:48 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
A number of newer theories on how evolution occurs account for the inconsistencies and/or non-completeness of the fossil record.

For example, from Stephen Jay Gould on the theory of punctuated equilibrium:

"What should the fossil record include if most evolution occurs by speciation in peripheral isolates? Species should be static through their range because our fossils are the remains of large central populations. In any local area inhabited by ancestors, a descendant species should appear suddenly by migration from the peripheral region in which it evolved. In the peripheral region itself, we might find direct evidence of speciation, but such good fortune would be rare indeed because the event occurs so rapidly in such a small population."

Just to be clear, explaining the fact that there are dramatic shifts and gaps in the fossil record is not a huge problem evolutionary biologists are conveniently sweeping under the rug. Current theory says the reason we do not see the thousands of intermediate steps in the fossil record is that these steps occur very rapidly in small isolated populations. Given that fossilization occurs very infrequently, and that an evolving population tends to be small and isolated from its ancestors, it may well be extremely difficult to find those missing links.

Ben, I am not familiar with the claims of current and ancient phyla being found together in the fossil record (aside from the footprint mentioned in this thread). Could you point me to the research you are referring to?

Robert Callahan 12-30-2008 01:45 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
[quote=Ben Chapman;481701]This would be a valid point if it weren't so incomplete. Let me be more clear. The current phyla that we see in the present world are well represented in the fossil record: ACROSS the entire fossil record; meaning within different supposed historical era. You have current phyla right along with the very ancient extinct phyla that are supposed to have been a previous species. The current phyla are not just found in strata from recent history, they are found among the same strata that are of a much "older" group of species. So you can tell me the current phyla are more complete just because they are more recent, but that doesn't wash with the fact that they are so complete across the entire spectrum. Do some checking.[/quote]

Ok I am sorry but I am not sure what you are looking for here. The fossil record is far from perfect. This is due to the fact that the vast majority of all species (not just individuals) that have ever existed were not fossilized. That being said all current life has descended from previous life and therefore scientists have tried to tie fossils found with current life forms, making phyla trees. If you want a list of transitional fossils here is one: [URL][/URL][COLOR=Red]PLEASE ENSURE YOU ANNOTATE ALL LINKS WHETHER WORK AND FAMILY SAFE.[/COLOR]

I am having a hard time figuring out what it is you want though. You are being very vague with your claims that the fossil record is incomplete. Could you be more specific?

[quote=Ben Chapman;481701]They have fossilized dinosaur footprints that have human footprints embedded within them.[/quote]

Do you have a reasonable source for that?

You say you are a "show me the money kind of person". Implying that if you are shown the evidence you would be willing to change your mind. But it really does not seem like you would be willing to change regardless of the evidence provided. Which is totally fine, if you believe something on faith that is ok, but you shouldn't imply your open to argument if you are not.


Moran Bentzur 12-30-2008 02:37 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
[QUOTE=Ben Chapman;481714]This would be easier to swollow if it were more consistent. You're telling me that the distinction is made up, but I've spent enough time in the field to be able to tell you with absolute certainty that this is NOT what is taught or believed by actual professionals in the field. All of my ecology, zoology and microbiology teachers not only acknowledge a distinction between micro and Macroevolution; they teach it in the cirriculum. All of these instructors are die hard secular evolutionists. So it's nice to try and claim that the two are made up, but it's pretty inconsistent with the doctrine of the industry. It might be made up, but if it is it's made up by the pro-evolution, anti-ID doctorates of biology. Do you have you're own form of boilogy that you've found that teaches it differently?

Ben, I am a an actual professional in the field. As far as I am aware, every other professional I've talked with does not make a concrete distinction between micro and macro evolution. There is no separation within the canonical view of evolution. There is only the one mechanism, selection of heritable variation, which is sufficient to explain both inter and intra species variation.
To drive this point home (whether professionals use this terms) I ran two pubmed searches: "macroevolution" and "speciation". Take a guess. I'll add the results on the bottom of this post.

[QUOTE=Ben Chapman;481714]In an ecological and zoological sense, Microevolution is widely accepted as those variations that are observable within populations. That is, they happen INTRAspecies, that is, the variations of sparrows, stay within sparrows. These variations are observable and have been easily documented ad naseum. MACROevolution is the variation INTERspecies, that is the speciation - or jump - from one form to another. i.e. the creation of a new class or genetically independent species that now interbreeds as it's own species. This evolution has NOT BEEN OBSERVED anywhere in current nature. there are plenty of microevolution variations among the same species occuring all around us, but the larger variations of macroevolution are only touted by interpolated and supposed stratification of the fossil record.

If you write it in Caps does it make it true? I wasn't aware of that rule :smiley_ev
I might urge you again to look at that wikipedia article regarding speciation. It has been observed many times. The wikipedia article does a very good job of citing peer reviewed paper sources so don't blow it off just because it is a wiki.

[QUOTE=Ben Chapman;481714]The main point is that the idea of differentiation between micro and macro evolution is something that is widely accepted and taught in the biological community among professiing evolutionists and to deny it is to doubt the very community you're trying to defend. Kind of ironic.[/QUOTE]

It is widely used within the public debate about evolution. I wonder who brought it into the debate? I have not encountered it within the scientific community in general and not in my own personal education. Maybe educational institutes in the US are more influenced by the debate to a point where these concepts have infiltrated the class room (undergrad).

The results from the pubmed searches: "macroevolution" - 162 results (38 reviews). "speciation" - 8917 results (807 reviews).

Clay Jones 12-30-2008 02:45 PM

Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...
[QUOTE=Ben Chapman;481136]Again, not doubting the Paleo diet's efficacy, I actually TRY to follow it as much as I can. I simply doubt the origin[/QUOTE]And I think that is fine, really. If the diet works for you, follow it. Call it the Aboriginal diet, or something else. :D

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