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-   -   2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread (https://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=89382)

Christopher Morris 05-28-2017 08:05 PM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
Dan said he pulled a pec muscle during event 2.

Alex Burden 05-29-2017 01:03 AM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
[QUOTE=Christopher Morris;1268476]Dan said he pulled a pec muscle during event 2.[/QUOTE]

The famous event 2... or the evil event 2.

Vic McQuaide 05-30-2017 09:02 AM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
Crazy some really big name athletes going down.. Christian L the latest big one.. was leading the CA Regional and tore or injured peck shoulder area.

But yet no women on this list to the best of my knowledge?

Diana Alt 05-30-2017 10:16 AM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
[QUOTE=Vic McQuaide;1268488]Crazy some really big name athletes going down.. Christian L the latest big one.. was leading the CA Regional and tore or injured peck shoulder area.

But yet no women on this list to the best of my knowledge?[/QUOTE]

No women yet that I have heard. There was a rumor that Taylor Streid in central might have withdrawn because of a pec, but she has a shoulder issue.

Talked to my coach about the pec shenanigans, and he said he thinks it's happening to women in large because they train dips mkre often since more of them struggle with that piece of muscle ups, where guys don't do the same.

Diana Alt 05-30-2017 10:37 AM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
Just got back yesterday from judging the Central regional. It was my third year judging, and definitely the smoothest one yet for us. Josh Bunch and Sue Burton do a spectacular job with this event. I'm looking forward to Madison this year! Volunteer judges will be assigned to either teams or teens/masters so I'm not sure what I'll be doing yet, but either way I'm happy!

Jon Campbell 05-30-2017 10:52 AM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
I think at this point you would be foolish to deny the dips in event 2 weren't a bad idea. I would really like to see Castro change that event for the remaining Regional events. If not and if I was an athlete competing, I would be extremely careful how I approached that event.

Michael E Tancini 05-30-2017 02:52 PM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
There is nothing inherently dangerous about Event 2 or inherently dangerous about the Ring Dip. 45 ring dips on the first day of competition is a very manageable amount and relatively low volume.

The pec injuries may be happening on the competition floor, however the injury was created in the training leading up to the regional competition. Its a multifactorial situation where you need to consider their shoulder extension+IR mobility, the deeper ring dip standard than they probably complete in training, their recovery during training (at the actual tissue level, Tendons can be pathological even without pain.), their training load before regionals, their training load over the previous year, increased situational stresses...etc.

The final ring dip is "just the straw that breaks the camels back". Injuries just don't happen. Tissues break down when they are not loaded appropriately. They can either be a large trauma in one pin point event, or it can be because an accumulation of micro trauma over time. These are micro trauma injuries that manifest it self into a larger event.

Christopher Morris 05-30-2017 03:20 PM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
[QUOTE=Diana Alt;1268491]Just got back yesterday from judging the Central regional. It was my third year judging, and definitely the smoothest one yet for us. Josh Bunch and Sue Burton do a spectacular job with this event. I'm looking forward to Madison this year! Volunteer judges will be assigned to either teams or teens/masters so I'm not sure what I'll be doing yet, but either way I'm happy![/QUOTE]

Kudos to you, Diana! I think it would be a blast to judge at a competition, but I know you put in long days. Well done!

Michael E Tancini 05-30-2017 04:50 PM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
Guys here is the article I wrote and my thoughts on the situation.

Work-family Safe

[url]https://www.groundtooverheadphysicaltherapy.com/single-post/2017/05/30/When-Tendons-tearIts-usually-not-the-exercise-its-you[/url]

Vic McQuaide 05-31-2017 10:47 AM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
Cool article.. I have never delved into the depth of this. Great write up.

Long straps, killing yourself to keep up with the trend, survival of the fittest and injuries just part of the game.

With any sport PED's come in to play. HQ has busted several athletes over the years. Tendon strength/growth could come into play with juicing up the system faster than the body is ready. Not saying anything about the athletes that were injured. As Im rehabbing from foot and shoulder injuries myself.

Diana Alt 05-31-2017 05:34 PM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
[QUOTE=Christopher Morris;1268499]Kudos to you, Diana! I think it would be a blast to judge at a competition, but I know you put in long days. Well done![/QUOTE]

It's such fun! I have loved judging ever since I judged my first local competition several years ago. I've gone from slightly clueless newbie to three time regional judge and first time Games judge this year! I dig it, and I'm good at it if I do say so myself. :)

Jon Campbell 05-31-2017 08:14 PM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
[QUOTE=Michael E Tancini;1268502]Guys here is the article I wrote and my thoughts on the situation.

Work-family Safe

[url]https://www.groundtooverheadphysicaltherapy.com/single-post/2017/05/30/When-Tendons-tearIts-usually-not-the-exercise-its-you[/url][/QUOTE]

Thanks for posting. That was very informative.

Christopher Morris 06-01-2017 06:21 AM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
[url]http://thebarbellspin.com/functional-fitness/pec-tears-at-regionals-23-and-counting/[/url] (wfs)

I think this is important. It's a shame for so many of these incredible athletes to end their season this way.

However, I shy away from making conclusions about why these injuries are happening. The causes that are being suggested are speculation.

Jon Campbell 06-01-2017 11:02 AM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
[QUOTE=Michael E Tancini;1268502]Guys here is the article I wrote and my thoughts on the situation.

Work-family Safe

[url]https://www.groundtooverheadphysicaltherapy.com/single-post/2017/05/30/When-Tendons-tearIts-usually-not-the-exercise-its-you[/url][/QUOTE]

In your opinion, why are we not seeing the injuries with the women? Mobility related?

Michael E Tancini 06-01-2017 04:40 PM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
[QUOTE=Jon Campbell;1268527]In your opinion, why are we not seeing the injuries with the women? Mobility related?[/QUOTE]

My hypothesis is that women naturally tend to have a greater amount of mobility in their shoulder. Especially Internal rotation and Extension. Which allows them to establish a healthier position in the muscle up and dip. I do not have any data supporting this hypothesis though, except my clinical experience with male and female athletes.

Jon Campbell 06-02-2017 08:03 AM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
[QUOTE=Michael E Tancini;1268529]My hypothesis is that women naturally tend to have a greater amount of mobility in their shoulder. Especially Internal rotation and Extension. Which allows them to establish a healthier position in the muscle up and dip. I do not have any data supporting this hypothesis though, except my clinical experience with male and female athletes.[/QUOTE]

Definitely makes sense. I mean, 20+ males that have had issues either during training leading up to regionals or during the work at regionals. As far as I know no females.

I'm not too sure if it were me and I thought i had a legit shot at making the games I wouldn't just try to finish the event in a slow, steady, controlled way instead of the fast kipping dips everyone has been doing. Try to make up ground in the remaining 5 events.

Vic McQuaide 06-02-2017 10:13 AM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
Super shoulder dominant workouts to say the least. They train so hard leading up the events just to keep up. Add the pressure of the event and going faster than they ever had. Long straps, speed, over trained.. well just a lot to ask of the body especially the ones not in the sport as long.

Christian L said he took breaks on the dip workout just to be safe. But the muscle up event got him on the last day.

The ladies must be more mobile? Shame seeing peeps going thru this stuff.

Its a sport and will have injuries but this is alot of them. :(

Greg Morrison 06-02-2017 01:02 PM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
Jeff Evans out after injury on event 2 :mad:

Vic McQuaide 06-02-2017 01:41 PM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
saw this also just now..its was like F#$% did this just happen... like in disbelief.. sadly this workout has taken out more peeps then all of the other ones combined adding up plenty of regionals. Just a show stopper for real.

Greg Morrison 06-02-2017 01:45 PM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
What's wrong with Ben Smith? :eek:

Vic McQuaide 06-02-2017 02:38 PM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
Im sure Benny will sort it out. Sure looking not so good right now. 42 points out of 5th not that bad. You will see many fall and him rise..

Ben Leeper 06-02-2017 03:30 PM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
As many people of Reddit have mentioned, I just wish HQ would at least MENTION the injuries in event 2. Its almost silly that, as analyzers, shaun, Tommy, or Pat haven't even mentioned the increased possibility on event 2. I'm sure they were instructed not to. Somebody correct me if they have but I haven't heard.

The floor announcer saying, "Evans is...taking a rest..." when he came down from the rings after just a few reps was just cringe worthy. I know its not his job to talk about an injury as it is happening but it just makes me laugh at how much they avoid the issue.

Vic McQuaide 06-02-2017 04:08 PM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
Ben Stoneberg is out now also. He was injured coming into the event they say. But he is another Games DNF.

Dave Castro was talking about event 2. Some people were pre injured, some got tears, some worse. He says part of the sport. He also says he would not change a thing except for peeps getting injured.

Bullet proof your shoulders folks.

Michael E Tancini 06-02-2017 05:16 PM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
[QUOTE=Vic McQuaide;1268547]
Bullet proof your shoulders folks.[/QUOTE]

This. We as athletes need to take responsibility for our mobility, stability, movement quality, and the injuries we suffer. There is nothing wrong with the programming or the ring dip movement.

Ben Leeper 06-02-2017 05:47 PM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
Analyzers, commentators, and HQ acknowledging the injuries isn't them admitting guilt, it's them doing their job. Other than DC mentioning it as stated above, HQ has been silent which just looks bad on their part in the eyes of a lot of people.

Christopher Morris 06-03-2017 12:00 PM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
[QUOTE=Ben Leeper;1268546]As many people of Reddit have mentioned, I just wish HQ would at least MENTION the injuries in event 2.[/QUOTE]

Dave Castro talks about event 2 injuries:

[url]https://www.facebook.com/CrossFitGames/videos/1554429874598865/[/url] (wfs)

His talking points:
- These injuries are unfortunate.
- Programming is not the cause. (Ring dips with these standards and rep scheme have been used in competition before without these injuries.)
- Do injuries expose a deficiency in training?
- 90-95% have no issue with this event.
- These are pec injuries (strain, tear). Not all injuries are pec tears.
- Competition CrossFit will have injuries because it is a competition where people push beyond their limit. Day-to-day CrossFit for non-competition athletes should not see these type of injuries.

My thoughts on his talking points:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2XusutYlsc[/url] (wfs)
Elizabeth (21-15-9 of cleans and ring dips) was done at the 2012 Games. It was event 13 of 15 events. No pec injuries there. Let's compare that to 2017 Regionals event 2.

Do 2012 ring dips look slower than 2017? Movement standards might be part of the problem. Though this movement standard hasn't changed, the range of motion / positioning should be re-evaluated. Maybe the way athletes have gotten bigger and faster each year has exposed current problems with a movement that wasn't a problem in the past.

The 2012 ring dips were the second event of the day after the double banger. Sledge hammer work engages the pecs and arms in a certain way.

The 2017 ring dips were paired with heavy DB snatch. This was after a weight vest event that included HSPU and pull-ups. This is going to load the pecs in a certain way. Was this loading too much for the pecs? Maybe it wasn't a problem with the programming of a single movement, but a problem with the bigger picture, which would include other movements, other events, and athlete preparation prior to Regionals.

Speed might be an issue in this sense: 2012 ring dips were event 13 of 15, so athletes would be more fatigued and moving slower. 2017 ring dips would have fresher, faster athletes, possibly more able to work to injury.

Personally, I think it is the DB snatch that is the major factor. A one-arm, heavy, asymmetric load. Notice how many of these injuries have the guys grabbing the right pec? I don't know if any have been grabbing a left pec, but it seems that right pec injuries have been more common. Does this point to asymmetric loading as being an issue? Right-handed athletes?

Still considering, speculating, discussing....

Christopher Morris 06-05-2017 08:04 AM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
[QUOTE=Christopher Morris;1268554]Notice how many of these injuries have the guys grabbing the right pec? I don't know if any have been grabbing a left pec, but it seems that right pec injuries have been more common. Does this point to asymmetric loading as being an issue? Right-handed athletes[/QUOTE]

On right vs. left - I looked back at the barbellspin list of injured athletes (up to 34 now, including one female). Eight of the reported injuries specify right side injury, five specify left side injury. Attributing this to the asymmetric DB snatch is a leap. I can't imagine a scenario where both pecs would be injured simultaneously on the ring dips.

Vic McQuaide 06-05-2017 11:33 AM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
way too many 33 men and 1 woman.. crazy thing..

Alex Burden 06-07-2017 02:17 AM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
[QUOTE=Vic McQuaide;1268569]way too many 33 men and 1 woman.. crazy thing..[/QUOTE]

That many Vic, you must be joking!!!!

Maybe it is not the actual event but the fact that the athletes bodies are wearing out due to the volume over such a long time.

Christopher Morris 06-07-2017 08:32 AM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
Theories on event 2 injuries that have been suggested:

- overtraining / volume fatigue / inadequate recovery
- insufficient warm-up
- deficiency of benchpress training / forward strength of pec (suggested by 2015 Barbell Shrugged video and by Dave Castro)
- mobility deficiency / motor control of shouler / internal rotation (suggested by Dr. Tancini)
- programming (heavy DB snatch paired with ring dips and/or event 1 leading to event 2)
- freshness / speed of athletes
- load / strength / mobility of men vs. women
- PED use increases risk of tendon injury

Which idea makes the most sense to you? Is it a combination of more than one of these factors?

Jan Hedman 06-07-2017 09:12 AM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
I think one risk for the sport in the future is that "everything" has to be faster,more,heavier etc than before...is fastest the fittest?? You can add speed to a certain point, but then,after that it cost you from another aspects and injury-risk raises.
For example,some of the deadlifts are done with such a round back, it horrible...even with some top athletes.
In db-snatch/ringdip wod...how much slowlier would have the wod go,if the athletes would not have been allowed to change arm when lowering the weight, but instead the rule had been that you can switch arm only when the dumbell is on the floor, i belive the preformance would have been safer that way, probably the hole 21-15-9 would have taken slightly longer...but so what...
And, what if the armchange had to do when Db on the floor and the dumbell had been heavier each "set", for men, 21reps with that 80lbs,15reps had been with 90 lbs and the 9 with 100lbs, arms change on floor, the athletes would really be forced to consentrate on form, slowlier times, probably not all done by timecap, would it have been less injuries...we'll never know...
Of course it's easy to play wise afterwards :)

Alex Burden 06-07-2017 01:00 PM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
[QUOTE=Jan Hedman;1268591]I think one risk for the sport in the future is that "everything" has to be faster,more,heavier etc than before...is fastest the fittest?? You can add speed to a certain point, but then,after that it cost you from another aspects and injury-risk raises.
For example,some of the deadlifts are done with such a round back, it horrible...even with some top athletes.[/QUOTE]

Some very valid points Jan.

It's now time for CFHQ to find new ways to differentiate the elite in a different way.

Vic McQuaide 06-07-2017 02:41 PM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
Might be all of them

David Meverden 06-07-2017 05:26 PM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
I think most everyone is in agreement that this is an unacceptable number of identical injuries and cannot simply be brushed off as "well, it's a competition". A lot of questions can come out of this but I think for the CrossFit community the two most important are:[INDENT]
1) Is this evidence that CrossFit is excessively dangerous as it's critics would claim?[/INDENT]
My Answer: I don't think so. Largely because nobody saw this coming. I don't know any CrossFitter or CrossFit critic that would have looked at that workout on paper and predicted numerous pec injuries. Critics haven't been yelling about how dangerous ring dips are and how stupid CF is to have them. Because nobody would have predicted the injury rate for this workout I think this fits more in the "freak occurrence" category.

[INDENT]2) Is this evidence that CrossFit HQ is complicit when it comes to safety? I.E. is HQ negligently allowing competitions to be more dangerous than they should be?[/INDENT]
My answer: Not yet. Again, largely owing to the unexpected nature of the risk. The real test is whether they program a workout like this again knowing that this is riskier than expected. Granted, now that we know this is more stressful than expected people can train specifically to avoid this, but why not just pick a safer test? With the million things these athletes already have to prep for maybe special attention for high rep ring dip prehab shouldn't be one of them.

Andrew Bell 06-09-2017 01:18 PM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
[QUOTE=David Meverden;1268600][INDENT]2) Is this evidence that CrossFit HQ is complicit when it comes to safety? I.E. is HQ negligently allowing competitions to be more dangerous than they should be?[/INDENT][/QUOTE]

What was the quote? "People will die for seconds"?

David Meverden 06-09-2017 04:48 PM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
[QUOTE=Andrew Bell;1268617]What was the quote? "People will die for seconds"?[/QUOTE]

Absolutely. That's why the competition organizers have a responsibility to make these competitions as safe as is reasonable, because the athletes won't keep themselves safe. They'll do whatever it takes to win.

The Murph in the heat at the 2015 games was, IMO, a case where the organizers recklessly endangered the athletes. Heat stress and thermal injuries could easily have been predicted given the direct sun, the heat, and the weight vest preventing some normal heat loss. But these pec tears aren't that. 21-15-9 of ring dips isn't at all crazy or something anyone would expect to take out top CrossFitters. So I'm giving HQ a lot of slack on this one.

The real test will be future competitions. Related issue: How did HQ respond to the rash of Achilles tendon ruptures during high rep box jump events? I haven't been watching things closely enough to know if high rep box jumps disappeared. Seems like box jump overs might have become the standard for competitions, which should be a safer option.

Christopher Morris 06-09-2017 05:16 PM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
I agree with everything you've said, David. I like the comparison of Murph 2015, Regionals event 2, and the change in box jump standards. That gives insight into how CrossFit HQ approaches safety.

Notice how they redid Murph at the 2016 Games at a different time of day. Part of the field and the rig were in the shade, so better conditions than 2015. Better performance all around by the athletes in 2016 (faster times, no time caps).

Vic McQuaide 06-13-2017 10:44 AM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
Yes crossfit has attempted to stay up with the times. I like how they have gone away from the box jumps in the open. Re bounding is more for the regionals and games and really not that even. Plyometrics in my last sport was done with respect. Death jumps were like do maybe 5 each week.

I really don't know about the ring dips and all of those injuries from the men and only 1 from the women. That is a shocker.

Yes Murph in the hot weather straight thru.... plus fatigued might have been a better call to do it in the early morning.

In Madison wonder if they have a cool obstacle coarse with a triathlon combo for the folks. That area lends itself to this type of endurance test. Plus would be a great spectator experience being in the beauty of nature.

Christopher Morris 08-21-2017 09:08 AM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
Well, it was an entertaining Games season. The spectacle has definitely been polished and dialed in. Presentation and commentary has improved.

It's a shame to see the decline of the discussion boards. In CrossFit we like to measure and quantify things. Here is the decline I've noticed on the forum:

2013 Open, Regionals and Games Thread: 2,224 comments, 476,692 views

2014 CrossFit Open, Regionals, and Games Thread: 1,800 comments, 547,598 views

2012 Open, Regional and Games thread: 1,527 comments, 358,013 views
2015 CrossFit Open, Regionals, and Games Thread: 1,076 comments, 455,547 views

CF Games 2011 General Thread: 994 comments, 124,650 views

These are the most popular threads in the Competitions section (by number of comments). Discussing the Games season used to bring in thousands of comments and hundreds of thousands of views.

The 2017 Games thread had just 197 comments and 61,000 views. I don't think this is because of a decline in popularity of the sport. It's a decline in popularity of the discussion boards.

I would love to see more discussion on the boards, and to hear more points-of-view on the Games season from more people. I would love to see an update to the format of the message boards ([URL="http://www.board.crossfit.com/showpost.php?p=1236998&postcount=29"]an idea in the works since at least 2014[/URL] - wfs). I would love to see more registered users here. HQ, are you listening?

[url]http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=88827[/url] (wfs)

Alex Burden 08-21-2017 11:23 AM

Re: 2017 CrossFit Open, Regionals and Games Thread
 
The view counters have actually stopped working :mad:

I mailed the board but nothing has happened.

They have not worked for 3 weeks.


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