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-   -   "High" Cholesterol at 23 (http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=73985)

Joffray Marcantel 03-06-2012 03:44 PM

"High" Cholesterol at 23
 
Like the title says. My total was 209 mg/dl, HDL was 65, LDL was 135 and Triglycerides were 43. The Mayo Clinic website (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/cho...levels/CL00001 WFS) tells me that my total is barely high (need to get it below 200), HDL is great (keep above 60), and my LDL needs to come below 130. I'm kind of concerned about it because of (obviously) being so young, and also because I have a family history of heart issues on both sides.

I try to eat fairy clean, usually having a cheat meal for lunch of Friday/cheat day on Saturday. I'm Greyskull LP-ing M/W/F, and only weigh like 163 last I checked.

To start, I figure I'd add in some conditioning on maybe Tuesday and/or Thursday. I was going to do this anyways once it started getting warmer but I guess I have an excuse to start now. I'll post what I eat too to see if that's part of the problem.

Breakfast- Protein shake (8 oz cream, 8 oz whole milk, 2 scoops whey), 1 orange

Lunch- 3 cups spinach and a large chicken breast (I put garlic salt/black pepper on the chicken and cook it in a pan with olive oil, then use the stock and some more olive oil as dressing)

Snack- Turkey sandwich with real cheddar on wheat bread, baby carrots and almonds

PWO- 16 oz OJ mixed with creatine

Dinner (about 45 minutes post-workout)- usually 4 eggs and another protein shake (16 oz whole milk this time). If I'm really hungry I'll add some instant oatmeal or pancakes, and like 4 strips of lower sodium bacon.

I don't want to give up eggs or whole milk, love those things. I also cook my eggs with real butter. I'm not quite sure what else to do but want to get this corrected as soon as possible.

Tricia Magrini 03-06-2012 04:08 PM

Re: "High" Cholesterol at 23
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_7u7...e_gdata_player

A must see in my opinion!

Sean Dunston 03-06-2012 04:13 PM

Re: "High" Cholesterol at 23
 
I'm not a doctor, and I don't even play one on TV... but given your youth, I would guess you are genetically predisposed to have high total cholesterol.

The good news, however, is that you have excellent HDL and Triglyceride numbers. In the grand scheme of things, cholesterol numbers are predictors of whether you will get heart disease/coronary artery disease. Having low Triglycerides is a good showing that you are at a lower risk. having high (in excess of 60) HDL is also a good showing that you are a lower risk.

Of course, most doctors these days want to throw you on a statin because they have shown to have good results in lowering total cholesterol. There are side effects to statins - be sure you read up on them. Most people do not know that Rhabdo is one of the possible side effects. If you are putting yourself at risk of Rhabdo by doing your workouts, I'd be careful about potentially exacerbating those risks by adding a drug that can be a contributing factor to that condition. My $.02.

There are competing theories on dietary cholesterol (what you ingest) and its impact on the actual amount of cholesterol found in your blood. Do some reading on the subject to see what you think.

Check with your parents to see what their cholesterol numbers are.

Joffray Marcantel 03-06-2012 04:44 PM

Re: "High" Cholesterol at 23
 
Thankfully I have a physical next week, so when I'm discussing this with my doc I'll ask him about my LPA number and my LDL pattern per Tricia's video. I won't let him put me on any meds.

I know my dad's on meds for his cholesterol, and he's also in excellent health at 53, but I'll see if he remembers his numbers.

Michael Dries 03-06-2012 06:41 PM

Re: "High" Cholesterol at 23
 
Was this LDL number measured or calculated. Sometimes folks with very low trig scores and have artificially inflated LDL scores because of the equation used.

IF you really want to lower the LDL eat a little less fat. Quite honestly if it were me (I'm close to those numbers and I'm 31), I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Joffray Marcantel 03-06-2012 07:48 PM

Re: "High" Cholesterol at 23
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Dries (Post 1040889)
Was this LDL number measured or calculated. Sometimes folks with very low trig scores and have artificially inflated LDL scores because of the equation used.

IF you really want to lower the LDL eat a little less fat. Quite honestly if it were me (I'm close to those numbers and I'm 31), I wouldn't worry too much about it.

I'm going to assume it was a measured number, though it didn't exactly say in the letter I received.

I don't plan on changing up much with my diet, maybe just cut out that turkey sandwich. Maybe switch to Canadian bacon instead of regular also (if there's even a difference. I like both anyways)

Joffray Marcantel 06-13-2013 04:20 AM

Re: "High" Cholesterol at 23
 
Had my physical last week and got my new numbers:
Total 224
HDL 53
LDL CALCULATED 157
Triglycerides 68

My Blood Urea Nitrogen was also flagged as high (24) but I'm assuming that's because of my high protein diet. My creatinine was 1.2

Obviously I'm a little more concerned now as my HDL went down and everything else went up. Especially since I think I eat cleaner and cheat less than this time last year. Should I post what I eat now?

Michael Dries 06-13-2013 05:52 AM

Re: "High" Cholesterol at 23
 
And what changes have you made in the last year?

My wife has the same profile, high HDL (typically over 80) low Trigs (under 50) and LDL is usually in the 130-170 range. I can't really get her to follow any sort of diet aside from avoiding gluten as often as she can (chronic intake causes migraines for her). The doc isn't worried because of her high HDL, low trig and the fact that she's a woman.

We have noticed a small difference if she removes conventional pork from her diet. Something about the fat in the pork seems to exacerbate her LDL numbers. Egg, beef intake seem to have no effect on her numbers at all.

You may want to look at a lower fat, higher (paleo friendly) carb style diet. Some people just pump out more LDL with higher fat intake than others.

Rice and potatoes. Avoid the gluten and too much non-fruit bound fructose (juices, added sugars, etc).

If you have the means, perhaps modifying your diet and getting blood work done every 3 months or so might help you figure out what works and what doesnt for you.

Phil Washlow 06-13-2013 06:54 AM

Re: "High" Cholesterol at 23
 
Of the numbers you have received the only ones that really indicate anything are your HDL and TG. Your HDL is good and so are your TG, your ratio TG/HDL is less than two which is great. TG/HDL is a very good indicator of heart disease, whereas LDL-C doesn't really mean anything. Please take some time to read this series on cholesterol. http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/t...esterol-part-i (wfs). There are 9 parts in total but you will never have another cholesterol question (except maybe trying to understand all of the science presented).

Michael, some studes have shown that "High" cholesterol in women is actually healthier. From your wifes numbers of High HDL, High LDL-C and Low TG I would veture to say that she is quite healthy.

Joseph Regan 06-13-2013 07:42 AM

Re: "High" Cholesterol at 23
 
Cholesterol has more to do with genetics. Now triglycerides are more diet related.

Joffray Marcantel 06-13-2013 08:08 AM

Re: "High" Cholesterol at 23
 
I basically follow Paleo + diary.

4 eggs, few slices of ham, peppers, bowl of oatmeal for breakfast

I'll have 2 egg muffins (Google this recipe, it's amazing) and an apple for mid-morning snack

Lunch is reheated stew (I'll make like 3lb of meat, 3 potatoes, 1lb of carrots, some peas, and tomato sauce in a crockpot). I have it 5-6 days a week.

Pre-workout I'll have a small cup of coffee and an orange. Post- I'll have a shake with 16oz whole milk, protein powder, and creatine plus a potato.

Then for dinner I'll mix up another shake (8oz cream, 8oz whole milk).

I'll also have a few handfuls of spinach and a couple shots of EVOO too on top of my fish oil and multi. I also drink about 3L of water every day. I'll go through 3 dozen eggs in a week, which some people tell me is too much.

I'm also concerned about my Basophils Percentage which is 1.2 and flagged as high. Googling what that means in relation to my health hasn't yielded any positive results, ranging from acute allergic reactions to a cause for some type of leukemia. My Blood Urea Nitrogen level was 24 which I just attribute to my high-protein diet.

Bill M. Hesse 06-13-2013 09:40 AM

Re: "High" Cholesterol at 23
 
I am going to rise against the crowd a little here and say if you are concerned about your LDL (which is the only number that is high) you need to address items in your diet like cream and butter. Saturated fat is the only reason that number is higher. It isn't genetic if you are eating a lot of saturated fat.

In short, if your are curious about your numbers and yet state you don't want to change your diet, then there isn't anything to be done. LDL is linked very directly to your saturated fat intake. Some people are more sensitive to dietary intake than others.

If your HDL was consistently high I would say you don't need to worry about it as much but considering HDL is what polices your LDL I would think twice before letting a bunch of internetz professionals tell you cholesterol doesn't matter and you are fine. Contrary to popular opinion, the healthcare industry research is not a scandal to put you on statins and take your money. Cholesterol isn't the only think to be concerned about because inflammation is needed too, but they both play a part in the puzzle. If you are 100% sure your inflammation is not a factor then you should be good, but I suspect you have a little of both going on. Here is a snip it from a wikipedia article explaining some of the factors that play into your favor:

LDL particles vary in size and density, and studies have shown that a pattern that has more small dense LDL particles, called Pattern B, equates to a higher risk factor for coronary heart disease (CHD) than does a pattern with more of the larger and less-dense LDL particles (Pattern A). This is thought to be because the smaller particles are more easily able to penetrate the endothelium. Pattern I, for intermediate, indicates that most LDL particles are very close in size to the normal gaps in the endothelium (26 nm). According to one study, sizes 19.0–20.5 nm were designated as pattern B and LDL sizes 20.6–22 nm were designated as pattern A.[5]

Some in the medical community have suggested the correspondence between Pattern B and CHD is stronger than the correspondence between the LDL number measured in the standard lipid profile test. Tests to measure these LDL subtype patterns have been more expensive and not widely available, so the common lipid profile test is used more often.[6]

There has also been noted a correspondence between higher triglyceride levels and higher levels of smaller, denser LDL particles and alternately lower triglyceride levels and higher levels of the larger, less dense LDL.[7][8]

With continued research, decreasing cost, greater availability and wider acceptance of other lipoprotein subclass analysis assay methods, including NMR spectroscopy,[9] research studies have continued to show a stronger correlation between human clinically obvious cardiovascular event and quantitatively measured particle concentrations.

The take away to know bout the small particle LDL is it's size lets it fit between endothelial cells in the arteries that triggers an immune response which creates a plaque formation.

I gave you my 2 cents. Do what you want with the information. The main point I wanted to get across to you is that LDL does matter and and is primarily affected by diet and saturated fat intake particularly. Instead of butter try canola oil or olive oil (not EVOO for cooking), and consider a little peanutbutter instead of cream in your shakes.

Phil Washlow 06-13-2013 09:57 AM

Re: "High" Cholesterol at 23
 
Saturated fat does not increase LDL. LDL-C is pretty much useless.

Michael Dries 06-13-2013 10:23 AM

Re: "High" Cholesterol at 23
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill M. Hesse (Post 1171600)
Cholesterol isn't the only think to be concerned about because inflammation is needed too, but they both play a part in the puzzle. If you are 100% sure your inflammation is not a factor then you should be good, but I suspect you have a little of both going on. Here is a snip it from a wikipedia article explaining some of the factors that play into your favor:



I gave you my 2 cents. Do what you want with the information. The main point I wanted to get across to you is that LDL does matter and and is primarily affected by diet and saturated fat intake particularly. Instead of butter try canola oil or olive oil (not EVOO for cooking), and consider a little peanutbutter instead of cream in your shakes.

I absolutely agree with the above but not with the recommendation of canola oil. That stuff is HEAVILY omega6 rich and EASILY oxidizable. Not something I would suggest eating and cooking with if you are trying to bring down inflammation.

If the OP is training on a regular basis and is otherwise healthy increasing carb intake after training and decreasing overall s-fat intake may help the situation.

Bill M. Hesse 06-13-2013 10:31 AM

Re: "High" Cholesterol at 23
 
It is higher in cooking temp than olive oil and has 1.3g of omega-3. I am not sure where your information came from but:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/canola-oil/AN01281

http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/canola-oil

http://www.canolacouncil.org/oil-and...-of-canola-oil

http://www.nutritionheart.com/canola-oil-health/

all links are wfs

Bill M. Hesse 06-13-2013 10:32 AM

Re: "High" Cholesterol at 23
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Washlow (Post 1171604)
Saturated fat does not increase LDL. LDL-C is pretty much useless.

Plenty of evidence suggests otherwise

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9101427

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10958817

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15983524

And here is even a summary that found a specific saturated fat that lowered TG to be fair:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23619368

This however does not mean it is not influencing LDL

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16904539

Saturated fat reducing effectiveness of HDL

All WFS

Michael Dries 06-13-2013 10:42 AM

Re: "High" Cholesterol at 23
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill M. Hesse (Post 1171615)
It is higher in cooking temp than olive oil and has 1.3g of omega-3. I am not sure where your information came from but:

all links are wfs

Not to pick at nits but...

I got my information here
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fats-and-oils/621/2 WFS
the link here claims 18% omega6


Olive oil is about 10% omega3.

The omega 3 in any vegetable source is ALA so the conversion to EPA and DHA are crap. And the enzymatic process is competitive between omega-3 and omega-6 so the more n6 you load into the system the worse the conversion and usage of n3 is.

Aside from the suggestion to use canola oil, I agree with your post and advice.

Bill M. Hesse 06-13-2013 11:07 AM

Re: "High" Cholesterol at 23
 
that is still a 2:1 omega 6 to omega 3 ratio in canola. quite favorable.

http://www.oliveoilsource.com/defini...-6-fatty-acids WFS

Todd R Bailey 06-13-2013 11:29 AM

Re: "High" Cholesterol at 23
 
Saturate fat intake does not appear to affect LDL levels when looking at an overall population. However, "there’s some variation in how individuals respond to dietary saturated fat. If we took ten people, fed them a diet high in saturated fat, and measured their cholesterol levels, we’d see a range of responses that averages out to no net increase or decrease."
http://chriskresser.com/the-diet-hea...-not-the-enemy (wfs)

So, on average, saturated fat will not increase LDL. However, Joffray is an individual and not an average. He could be a hyper responder whose LDL increases with saturated fat intake. Having said that, the question still remains whether it makes any difference. I agree that LDL-C as a stand alone number doesn't tell you anything with any predictive value. You may be very healthy or unhealthy with an LDL-C of 157.

Bill's post about LDL particle size is good information and particle size does appear to be a more accurate indicator. However, even more important is your LDL particle number ("LDL-P") which is generally not measured, even in a VAP test. "Particle size loses its predictive value after adjustment for particle number. In other words, particle number is more important. This is evident from looking at people with Familial Hypercholesterolemia (FH), who have predominantly large, buoyant LDL particles but are still at three-fold greater risk of death from heart disease (because of their high LDL particle number)."
https://chriskresser.com/the-diet-he...article-number (wfs)

I second Phil's recommendation to take a look at the eatingacademy.com website he posted. Also, as you can tell from the links I've provided, I think highly of Chris Kresser's recent series on Heart Disease/Cholesterol. Not as detailed as The Eating Academy series, but shorter and a little more accessible for the lay person.

One final point. One or even two cholesterol tests don’t accurately tell you how a change in diet or lifestyle is affecting you. TC, LDL and HDL levels can vary greatly in the same person from day to day without any change in diet or lifestyle. In one study, 20 subjects had 4 serum cholesterol tests over the course of a month. “Variations of more than ±20% in the, serum levels of total cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, and high-density lipoprotein cholesterol were seen in 75%, 95%, and 65% of the subjects, respectively.”
(http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/arti...ticleid=652985) (wfs)

You read that right, 19 of the 20 subjects saw a variation of more than 20% in their LDL level. In your case, the change in your LDL level is within that 20% variation (although it is getting close). You really need to track this for a while to see if this is a trend or simply the result of natural and normal fluctuations.

As you can see there are a lot of opinions and info on this stuff. The best you can do is read as much as you can until you feel comfortable making up your own mind.

Phil Washlow 06-13-2013 11:41 AM

Re: "High" Cholesterol at 23
 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14601690 (wfs)

Saturated fat does not impact LDL or HDL concentrations. It does though lower TG and VLDL, both of which are positives.

http://vimeo.com/45485034 (wfs), lecture on cholesterol.

Bill M. Hesse 06-13-2013 11:45 AM

Re: "High" Cholesterol at 23
 
While I am not sure about the above citing being someone I would consider and expert, there is some good information. Your response to saturated fat and what is going on inside you is unique to you. I think you will find it hard to get your doctor to run a bunch of high end tests to appease your desire for knowledge. Unless you have all the information you need, you will be gambling as to what is happening in your arteries. My final suggestion is to lower your saturated fat intake significantly for 2-3 months and retest. Be honest about your intake and the results. This is about the only way you will likely find out how you respond to dietary intake changes. Foremost, don't trust the interwebz and its experts with your health. Do your own research, talk to qualified professionals and think critically about choices.

Bill M. Hesse 06-13-2013 12:01 PM

Re: "High" Cholesterol at 23
 
Nevermind

Frank E Morel 06-13-2013 01:41 PM

Re: "High" Cholesterol at 23
 
Ask and spring for a vap profile..

This will look at your LDL and see if you truly have bad cholesterol.
Buoyant - floating and fluffy. Which tends to skew tradional testing towards high
Or you have dense, which the truly bad cholesterol.

http://www.atherotech.com/vapcholtest/. Wfs. Explanation here

Kevin Sanders 06-13-2013 09:57 PM

Re: "High" Cholesterol at 23
 
A little over a year ago I discovered I had high cholesterol.

Your best best if you want to avoid statins is probably going to be enduracin (wax matrix niacin) supplementation.

I wrote an article about my journey here:
http://musclereview.net/lower-choles...thout-statins/

By the way, you should dissolve your creatine completely in warm water.

Frank E Morel 06-14-2013 08:26 PM

Re: "High" Cholesterol at 23
 
Spoke to a cardiologist today, and he made a comment that high LDL in a fit young person maybe just the simple variable of increased general muscle damage.....

I guess a pending question to answer. How many days did you rest up before your bloodwork was taken ?


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